Since 1999 A Busa codes to c31 6Fixed

(CAT3 @ Jan. 22 2007,15:39)
(cougar694u @ Jan. 22 2007,13:25) Is this what you're saying, "If you unplug the GPS sensor harness the following will be enabled:

A) A fatter fuel trim
2) Factory rev limiter of 10,900 RPM
III) MPH >= 187

Thus, eliminating the need for a TRE"

Is that what you're saying?
That IS exactly what he is saying.

What a complete f***** waste of time, why didn't he just say that instead of trying to dazzle everyone with words.  OP, you suck at the Internet.

(CAT3 @ Jan. 22 2007,15:39) As well, from another thread, the use of a Power Commander or other tuning tool is garbage...

I don't necessarily agree here, the PC is an awesome tuning tool that's proven to show gains.  It's true that a piggy-back system (ie. the PC) isn't quite as fast as the ECU, but a PC is one hell of a tuning tool that allows us to enjoy the flexibility of tuning our own fuel trims.  I think at very high RPMs (higher than our lovely bus's turn) it may not be as accurate, but they seem to function just fine at 15k on the gsxr6.

Same as the SAFC for a car.  It's a piggy back, but I saw gains from using, and I'm not the only one.

I'd prefer to have my ECU tuned directly, but it's not near as easy as hooking a PC to the dyno and let it do the programming for you.

I forgot where I was going with this.

**EDIT**
Now I remember

(2busa @ Jan. 19 2007,10:40) Ping: is a computer term used to reference a specific signal from point A (ECU) to point B (sensor). The 3 wire ping would look like this:

E ------------[ main harness connector to ]------------GPS Sensor = 186
C ------------[ main harness connector to ]------------GPS Sensor = (6) Lock
U ------------[ main harness connector to ]------------GPS Sensor = 400 Plus RPM.

What irks the crap outta me is this is completely wrong.  The GPS does NOT function this way.  Don't spread false information based on your interpretations of your readings.  That s*** causes wars (reference Biblical interpretations vs different religions and 'Holy wars').
 
Cougar...

I cannot see the unplugging of the GPS being such a great thing, giving the additional rpms in 6th, unrestricting the 186mph and all that. It just seems a little far of reach to think its as easy as "unplug and run better" being the solution.

I also agree, direct tuning of a PCM, ECM etc is better than piggyback. Also, some computers have more parameters to tweak than others, so at times its beneficial to remove the factory computer and go aftermarket, e.g. the OBD-II although very comprehensive, there are setups out that rival it like Big Stuff 3, Accel DFI Gen VII etc. Easy way out is to use a Mega Squirt for some, or software like HP Tuners, LS1 Edit, TwEECer etc... Anyway...

Seems there are still children suffering from not enough attention from mommy and daddy so they pull up on sites and try talking like they built the programming etc.

I think 2Busa is Emo.
 
Not only that, but it's impractical to unplug it.

Funny, I contemplated installing the MSnS on the busa, but that's as far as it got. I had no desire to take it any further.
 
The Childishness? Some 'attention getter' though wasn't it. The only "reprogramming" I noticed is to close down 1999 and some 5th map theory. How do you begin to tune a "limiter" was what I was after when I entered this board. That was 7 years worth, where you, (not me) were messing with a computer bike, and no matter where I go, the computer 'think' is nowhere near the book theory. The aftermarketeers know how to read the manual. I'm not the only one who knows how to read the manual... What gives?
I came here reading any ECU tricks, and the clutch mod just sunk my shoulders. That kind of mod on a computer bike is a waste. The computer trumps your every move. Why after 7 years no one, not even any MMI (missed most instructions) guys could wave their arms and say something.

It just shows you how scary it is rolling a bike in the dealership, or Rolling into a motorcycle website; seems there is no different.

Here, I'm thinking if anyone is "deep setting" the computer; using the internal maps. I come here and I'm ridiculed for it. That's fine. I understand we were not on the same page. I had to make the same hump over to the next page. I thought by now, someone would be map selecting the ECM. The car guys that are way ahead in the ECU 'think' could not walk the book aspect...

I'm trying to download the full (9min video) version... It will be a tribute to the GPS voltage values, 1999, JC, and anyone else I left out... (*)


*Google 'failed' to load. Trying Yahoo. BBL.



I
 
(2busa @ Jan. 22 2007,19:00) I came here reading any ECU tricks, and the clutch mod just sunk my shoulders. That kind of mod on a computer bike is a waste. The computer trumps your every move.
How?

Black wire = closed circuit
Blue wire = open circuit
Red wire = 6.7K Ohms

What gear am I in?
 
(2busa @ Jan. 22 2007,17:00) The Childishness? Some 'attention getter' though wasn't it. The only "reprogramming" I noticed is to close down 1999 and some 5th map theory. How do you begin to tune a "limiter" was what I was after when I entered this board. That was 7 years worth, where you, (not me) were messing with a computer bike, and no matter where I go, the computer 'think' is nowhere near the book theory. The aftermarketeers know how to read the manual. I'm not the only one who knows how to read the manual... What gives?
I came here reading any ECU tricks, and the clutch mod just sunk my shoulders. That kind of mod on a computer bike is a waste. The computer trumps your every move. Why after 7 years no one, not even any MMI (missed most instructions) guys could wave their arms and say something.

It just shows you how scary it is rolling a bike in the dealership, or Rolling into a motorcycle website; seems there is no different.

Here, I'm thinking if anyone is "deep setting" the computer; using the internal maps. I come here and I'm ridiculed for it. That's fine. I understand we were not on the same page. I had to make the same hump over to the next page. I thought by now, someone would be map selecting the ECM. The car guys that are way ahead in the ECU 'think' could not walk the book aspect...

I'm trying to download the full (9min video) version... It will be a tribute to the GPS voltage values, 1999, JC, and anyone else I left out... (*)


*Google 'failed' to load. Trying Yahoo. BBL.



I
Well, when you find a computer programmer who can write in hexidecimal then you'll be on your way to reporgramming the fricken limiter. But why stop there? Why even go there when the valvetrain is not setup for much more rev's, nor is the cam profile etc?

Do you know why the computer "think" is no where near the book theory? Cuz its a theory! hahahah. I couldn't pass that one up, just a word you use a lot inappropriately is all
smile.gif


If the aftermarketers as you call them, now the "theory" and "book" as you claim, then why is there a TRE, Modified GPS etc? Why hasn't Brock and other top guns come out and admitted to pulling all the sensors in their race program bikes and gain the respect, confidence and support of more us? Probably cuz your theory is flawed, which is why its not fact!

The computer doesn't "trump" any move. It is a programmed piece of equipment, where x+y=z etc, until you go and alter the logic and parameters. I know this is all over your head from our previous conversations, but trust me. If you change the logic, values, math etc in the ECM you gain more and more and lose less and less. The bikes do not have AI, so it can't anticipate your moves, nor counter them. In reality, your defeating yourself by not taking the time to learn the programming, afterwards which you will be able to work around the "trumps."

I personally love this quote from you:
It just shows you how scary it is rolling a bike in the dealership, or Rolling into a motorcycle website; seems there is no different.
After you admitted to being a dealer level mechanic for so many years, and then your insinuation that board members are of equal ignorance on subject matter proves my point....you the dealer mech and board member are your own worst enemy!

And I cannot make hide or hair of what your trying to say in this part:

Here, I'm thinking if anyone is "deep setting" the computer; using the internal maps. I come here and I'm ridiculed for it. That's fine. I understand we were not on the same page. I had to make the same hump over to the next page. I thought by now, someone would be map selecting the ECM. The car guys that are way ahead in the ECU 'think' could not walk the book aspect...

Maybe layoff the Red Bull before you let your fingers override your thoughts? Something like this....
Here I am wondering if anyone is deep setting the ECM using internal maps? (still doesn't make sense). I come in here and am ridiculed for it (got this part and it makes sense why, your way of conveying a message, thought, etc is kewed by your inability to communicate effectively; you need to learn about what you seek before you can find the answers!).

We're not on the same page of thought, rarely do I encounter someone so bent on proving a point they barely understand enough to attempt to discuss! So no, we're not. I think the page you jumped over too was in the wrong subject, not even the same game hombre!

The car tuning guys, like I'd consider myself, are way ahead in the game not only because of the software/programs available, but the level of ppl working to crack the coding are much more abundant and willing to share the info. Its kind of hard to work something you dont understand.

Do you comprehend the relationship IAT has on how a vehicle responds to user input? Or ECT? MAP, MAF Flow/Hz/ etc? If not, you need to. Its not as simple as an electronic carb. The entire system is comprised of checks and balances, input/output and more checks, feedback etc.. There are some good beginner books available if you are interested in reading books, as it seems, they may be able to help you out. Let me know.
 
CAT, You said, "The entire system is comprised of checks and balances, input/output and more checks, feedback etc.."

There you go. You will see the checks and balances by pulling each individual wire. Watch the checks and balances, and I'll take a guess and say... If you pull the 186 wire, checks and balances say... 6fx and 400 come along... as if you pulled 6fx wire, C&B would bring 186/400 and so on.

Your ass is checkmated...

Would I, a low level knuckle dragger, design a bike so some car guy, prized in FI, would be able to unlock just one signal (186), and then tell 6fx (a juicy factory fat map) and 400 extra RPM to stay home? Is that how you found the 5th map also?... Or, should I turn the page for you.... I have kind of long arms...

CAT, MR. Driveability/Tuner Guy... That is my abstract... Does the 'tuning' logic follow the sequence of the GPS? In that case, I am wrong. I'm not following the book in the absolute. Plus, I did not know once you clutchmuck the sensor triggering 186, how were 400rpm and the almighty 5th map happen to come out and play? Oh, do I have the sequence mixed up, as to who is triggering whom? Like the book cares?!?!

I don't know what the other tuners are doing. I'm a pure stock kind of guy. I keep the valves in the blueprint, leave the cams stock and work the FI side only. You'll never hear me cry for a fuel map to ruin a beautiful, "crisp" (stock) throttle response in the digital. Think what you like.

What you need to do; is prove me wrong and you proved the book wrong. I'm interpreting the book with every theory/it does it this way/**** it-clutch it... kind of quantum leap of way you think physics works.

Bring it on... (video on the way- some day).
 
CAT says, "For someone claiming to be a dealer mechanic for so long, and a race pit mechanic etc. how could you have never heard of the TRE, modified GPS', or even not messed with a "computer bike" until 06' when Bikes with computers have been running around for over 2 decades?"

CAT, funny you should ask that exact question. If I can clear things up a little, I'm the pilot, not the pit guy. True, I lack the language skills, engineering, etc. Here's the kicker, CAT... I literally walked away from the bike scene. Call it burn out. The Busa was out for less than a year. I serviced a few and knew the awesome power back then. True, I am pre-ecu. Fast forward to April '06. I decide to ride again. My first question at a 13.5 site was if the linear throttle plates were remove-able? I was chastised for that question. Some name kept on popping up and some tre thing is suppose to wake the bike up. I'm reading the posts, follow the book, follow the action of the tre, follow someone come up with a 270 ohm to a wire, then I placed a toggle in between the one wire. I noticed the code was at (6), but more things triggered behind the scenes. No codes were set on the dash though, but the subs were lifting w/out spitting a hard code. Again, I followed the book, the bike copied the book codes. I concluded the code sets both soft (Ck/Bal) and hard codes. If the digital code was this impressive, maybe there is more, ''Tune' in the other codes, was my thinking. A Pcom is for racing, not for the street, IMO.

http://www.srh.noaa.gov/elp/wxcalc/pressureconvert.shtml Radio click the (torr) button.
Enter the numbers, then watch the PSI walk the fuel map. In analog, you can plot the range. So, if 6 is over-rich and 18 is lean, click the analog range 100 to 900mmhg. Then enter the f/safe map using only the 760mmhg number. Watch the range, (in fuel trim).

I'm trying to stay as simple as I can make this. I'm after the guys that are temporarily lost. The word, abstract is used more for the novice. I want them to devise a way to see what is not in the book.
 
(2busa @ Jan. 23 2007,00:12) If you pull the 186 wire, checks and balances say... 6fx and 400 come along... as if you pulled 6fx wire, C&B would bring 186/400 and so on....
...What you need to do; is prove me wrong and you proved the book wrong...
..Bring it on...
There is no individual 186 wire, there is no individual '6fx' wire, and lastly, there is no individual 400 RPM wire.

The hard-coded absolute logic of the gear position sensor will NOT allow for the logic you're presenting.

**EDIT**
And I don't give a **** what the book says, this is from my own personal testing. You can tell I'm not the only one who tested it, or there wouldn't a TRE on the market.
 
2Busa, not checkmated man.. You haven't proven sh!t yet, and your "theory" of one wire controlling one function is crap. Please stop before someone believes in the garbage your typing. I have to go to work today, so no play time for you, I'm sorry. I'll check back in later tonight or tomorrow.
 
Haynes Service & Repair Manual - Suzuki Hayabusa

Section 4:13

Fault Code C31 - Gear Position Sensor - Engine will run, signal fixed to 6th gear.


Section 4:15 Gear Position (GP) Switch

NOTE: Do Not Disconnect the pink wire from the gear position switch in the mistaken belief that this will lead to increased performance, as reported in certain circles. In the case of the GSX1300R this action will lead to rough running, hesitation, and plug fouling.



So, this is what the Haynes manual has to say. It talks about the "Pink" wire. It also lists an error code (31) if the gps is faulty or damaged. Will the Bike flash a fault code if the GPS is completely disconnected? Will it only flash a fault code if the "Pink" wire is disconnected?

Does the "6th" gear signal cause the bike to run much richer, and if it does, cant this be compensated by a power commander?

Does the 6th gear signal increase the rev limiter by 400 rpm, and disable the speed limiter?
 
(Zuki @ Jan. 23 2007,09:10) Does the "6th" gear signal cause the bike to run much richer, and if it does, cant this be compensated by a power commander?

Does the 6th gear signal increase the rev limiter by 400 rpm, and disable the speed limiter?
My interpretation of 'fixed to 6th gear' is that it will default to saying the bike's in 6th gear all the time.

Is the 'fixed to 6th gear' the same as actually being in 6th gear, except the ECU stays in 6th gear logically?

Since the ECU lowers our rev-limiter in 6th gear, wouldn't the same hold true for 'fixed to 6th gear', thus not giving the additional 400 RPM as stated above?

Who else agrees with my interpretation?

**EDIT**
This reminds me of 'limp mode' in electronic transmissions. When something fails, it locks you in 2nd gear so you can 'limp' home.
 
Cougar, It does not matter who does what to whom. What matters is the 6th map is the absolute answer to the 5th map. The video repeats over and over, 6th/Fix is the final answer...by design, (PERIOD). For the tech minded, go get a drink, let me pull up the dreaded word for the one who is somewhat confused...

http://video.yahoo.com/video....1729282

I do not care what the 3 wires do, (Cougar/CAT). As far as I'm concerned (in the asp), they can, fart, pee, and spit (i.e. = the human mind is in control of the 3 orifices from the human body brain=ecu).
As long as you follow how the component fails in 3 distinct ways, only then do you follow the theory from the practical, to the final absolute. The aspect becomes indisputable, as if we said; "You could run an engine without one of the, 'absolutes' = gasoline".
Therefore, I follow the 3 absolutes: (1. No Sig = connectors apart/2. Open Wire = a pin backed out of the connector's female/male end/3. voltage value = Ohm signal, 'blocking' the true signal down to the GPS bake, where the real voltage ping belongs).

The evidence becomes absolute and indisputable = No 5th map available. The 6fx is the set. Do you want to dispute the 5th? I (the book, not me) will walk all over your theories and bring you right back to the absolute. Bring it on....



The 14 (for demo) uses the same (basic) standard default system as the BUSA. Any computer bike: is a rose is a rose, (sort of speak). The fact that the ECU is one more diagnostic problem like fuel, spark compression, makes the bike, (believe it or not), 'way easier', (way!) to diagnose. The magic is to follow the, 'connection' in the book. "The book say", If this does this, this is what will happen. You can duplicate the code by setting the hard code, or tamper with any sensor wire and you upset the delicate balance of the component sequence.

GPS will short as soon as the key is turned on. The F/safe is automatically ready to plot fuel in digital, (not the sensor's 7 signals (6-N). In fact, the backup is so perfectly balanced, you could literally pull almost all the sensor connections off the bike and it will run in perfect running order (gotta know the basics first =to pull the correct ones) in multi f/safe mode. The bike will run until that ECM burns out...

Computer Sequence Failure, (3 of them) sounds a lot easier now... No?: Sensor~Fail-Safe~ECM~(Burns a circuit board inside)~No Start... (too easy, no?)

Book (says) Bottom Line: Touch any wire connection, pull any wire out of the sensor, install any component in between the wire of any sensor and the bike will throw the code to match what is written the book, (for that sensor).

Computer bikes follow a pattern (physics) just like you used to do changing jets (atmo) back in the day. It does not matter what shop manual I use for demonstration. The computer's FI system must fire of the fuel in an absolute sequence, (as if you described every sequence (in degrees) of a 4 cycle engine). Therefore, the 14 shop manual is a valid source to mimic most every aspect of the Busa's F/safe (backup-14) system, if not a typical computer bike.

3 different scenarios (pull one wire/disconnect sensor/voltage values out of spec) were addressed in the demonstration. These same effects can only draw you to one conclusion = Fail-Safe was triggered upon each event.

The simple (diagnostic) logical conclusion to sensor tampering? No 5th map file can ever be triggered, held in place, pulled up from the computer, or is designed to run in a 5th map.... (or the design (in-t-absolu) would say otherwise).

If the video demonstrates anything, it should show you; no matter how you mess with the computer sensor, it will lock you out and all you're left with is what the computer has in it's BACK(up) Pocket. You just learned 1of 2 basic steps (sensor to f/safe), that the computer uses to keep running. If the analog parameter in the sensor drops a signal, the computer recognizes the signal, drops the sensor out of the loop and plots fuel in f/safe signals, (in the, "digital').
 
Make this simple for me to understand.

Since I run a power commander, I run in analog with 6 analog maps, but with this I have the 184 speed restriction in place, 400 rpm's are cut out of 6th gear.

If I run a TRE or GPS Mod, it sends an incorrect signal? Wouldn't this then make the system go to 6th map (Digital) fail safe mode?

If I just rip out the 3 wires from the GPS, I go into fail safe digital mode, no speed restrictions, 400 rpm cut-off is lifted in 6th gear, and the bike will run perfectly & actually run better then me spending $500.00 to get a custom map done for the analog mode (all 6 maps)?

rock.gif
rock.gif
rock.gif


rock.gif


rock.gif
 
(Zuki @ Jan. 23 2007,14:22) Make this simple for me to understand.

Since I run a power commander, I run in analog with 6 analog maps, but with this I have the 184 speed restriction in place, 400 rpm's are cut out of 6th gear.

If I run a TRE or GPS Mod, it sends an incorrect signal? Wouldn't this then make the system go to 6th map (Digital) fail safe mode?

If I just rip out the 3 wires from the GPS, I go into fail safe digital mode, no speed restrictions, 400 rpm cut-off is lifted in 6th gear, and the bike will run perfectly & actually run better then me spending $500.00 to get a custom map done for the analog mode (all 6 maps)?

rock.gif
rock.gif
rock.gif
Zuki says, "Since I run a power commander, I run in analog with 6 analog maps, (Yes) but with this I have the 184 speed restriction in place, 400 rpm's are cut out of 6th gear." (Yes, because of no GPS code. The Pc does not wire into the GPS).

Zuki says, "If I run a TRE or GPS Mod, it sends an incorrect signal? (Yes) Wouldn't this then make the system go to 6th map (Digital) fail safe mode?" (ABSOLUTELY!).

Zuki says, "If I just rip out the 3 wires from the GPS, I go into fail safe digital mode..." (Yes, but I'd unplug the connection rather than "rip" it out by the short hairs), "...no speed restrictions, 400 rpm cut-off is lifted in 6th gear, and the bike will run perfectly & actually run better then me spending $500.00 to get a custom map done for the analog mode (all 6 maps)?" (Yes. If you have the 'pure stock mentality' to settle for the stock tune, (in the digital codes).

rock.gif


rock.gif
 
2busa

Ok, As for "Pure stock mentality" , lets talk about this for a minute. You say "digital codes"...I thought we would only have 1 code - The digital fail safe mode of 6th gear...maybe a typo on your part?

Why does the Suzuki service manual say the bike will run rough and foul plugs if the GPS unit is damaged? Will it run rough and foul plugs because the bike is only using the 1 digital fail safe map (6th gear) & if this is the case, wouldn't doing this mod be perfect for someone with a full exhaust, pair valve removal, and small air box mod - more fuel in the 6th gear default Fat map....sorta makes me think this tune would be better suited for a moded bike then a purely stock bike.
 
Coug says, "My interpretation of 'fixed to 6th gear' is that it will default to saying the bike's in 6th gear all the time." (Coug, consider that a, 'ck eng lite'. It is just another flashing FI on the dash. The 6Fx is a way to tell you the GPS threw a code = 'check sensor lite')

Coug says, "Is the 'fixed to 6th gear' the same as actually being in 6th gear, except the ECU stays in 6th gear logically?" No. The Busa is a manual trans. You need to recognize that some sensor designs are placed at the end of a shaft. The shaft clicks the signal. If the sensor fails, the shaft still turns, as in the bike will still operate normally. The electrical signal is frozen in 6 to say, "I threw a code. Go check me out in 3 ways until you find which of the 3 wire failures set me in c31.)

Coug says, "Since the ECU lowers our rev-limiter in 6th gear,..." True, (if you say, ALL gears). "...wouldn't the same hold true for 'fixed to 6th gear',..."False. I'll use your previous,'true' statement to contradict the step you need to, 'connect' with. The code, "fixed to 6th gear" opens all lines to fail-safe. "...thus not giving the additional 400 RPM as stated above?" Thus disabling the 3 signals as a group, then sets 3 wire (signal) variables (who cares how the bike works inside the ECM). The step; is to watch 3 variables click from sensor to fail-safe FIRST.... is your connection to = 6Fixed. This is the bottom of the barrel.... 'ECM Computer Basics'.

Coug says, "Who else agrees with my interpretation?" Almost none of it. If you include the other 5 gears will pop the limiter, then, yes, I agree with some of it.


Now the question is.... Are we still on opposite pages, or am I following the book to answer the questions. You figure it out. If 186/6/400 is a lie, so be it. Keep using the 3 wires as such to work the computer concept.
 
(2busa @ Jan. 23 2007,18:34) Coug says, "Is the 'fixed to 6th gear' the same as actually being in 6th gear, except the ECU stays in 6th gear logically?" No. The Busa is a manual trans.

Really, I didn't know that, this whole time I thought it was an automatic.

That's why I said it's 'logically' in 6th gear. The ECU uses the logic, "If the GPS is missing/fails/whatever, stay in 6th gear", in reference to the 'fixed to 6th gear' map, not physically staying in 6th gear (as we all know this is not practical and not 'fail-safe'), does it not? I didn't say it was physically in 6th gear. I know how it physically works.

(2busa @ Jan. 23 2007,18:34) You need to recognize that some sensor designs are placed at the end of a shaft. The shaft clicks the signal.
This is exactly why the GPS mod works. The red wire will show x resistance, that's all the ECU understands and interprets for each gear.

Where's your proof that removing the GPS sensor does this? So far, this is all theory. In theory, a hydrogen-filled zeppelin painted with a similar concoction to jet fuel was a good idea.

Let me know when this is dyno tested.

Anyone wanna chip in for a few dyno runs? I'll be more than happy to throw my bike on and test this theory.
 
Back
Top