Since 1999 A Busa codes to c31 6Fixed

[2busa]

Who needs a dyno..... Rev the engine w/the GPS attached. Hit the rev limiter at WOT. Pull the GPS connector, rev the engine past the limiter is the theory.
If the stock bike runs past the limiter, all you need to do is hold the rev down to where you don't tag valves.

The tre,270 ohm, a disconnect and now a zener diode. No problem. You'll fine 6Fx with that setup too.

Where is the clu/mod answer so you understand the function of the sensor and how modifying a sensor is a futile waste. Coug, stay away from the clutch mod. You have 4 components to play with: Aftmkt TRE's, 270 ohm resistor, zener diode, and the disconnect. Follow how 3 components wind up triggering the 6Fx.... sans the disconnect.

Follow the 3 common wires from the GPS: 1. Ground. 2. ECM. 3. Neutral safety switch. Notice the safety switch wire heading into a junction box. Follow the junction box wires out to the other components that join the GPS wire in the j/box.

Up to this point, you should begin to see a pattern of attempts to the sensor. Every attempt defaults to the 6Fx'd.

What one person needs to do is to post the, "Yes, the 6Fx is present after the clu/mod", or the the no answer is, "No, ! can see 1-N-2-3-4-5-5 as I shift." I can break-down the working sequence of the mods to the of the GPS, to where the design is, 'in the absolute'....

Do you now comprehend the book theory is in question? The path ends here. It didn't take but a page to explain the GPS, but the filler pages revert back to the, yes/no question.


This post is dead in the water without the yes and/or no answer.

No problem here. I'll just reinforce the theory with every "non-answer'd YES OR NO post."

 

[cougar694u]

Not only am I questioning your extended rev limiter of the 'fixed to 6' fail safe, but I'm also questioning the 'fatter' digital fuel map. To come to any conclusion, I'll need to put it on a dyno. Yes, I can use my wbo2 controller to test that, but I'm not going to.

 

[2busa]

Coug, I bet the needle almost bounces. We work in 1 atmo (14.7). If the computer can plot in the analog, how far off do you think the digital set will be... atmospherically speaking. Think the computer runs fat? The same plot is going on in the digital, (I can feel it in feet =the difference subtle). Do not chase the, abstract. It is unimportant how the bike runs lean/rich and every last parameter going on. Chasing the rich map is like using the parody (video) wires to troubleshoot the ECM.

Look at the bike wires. One wire goes to the ECM, one to ground, and (keep it simple) one to tell you which gear you're in. You need to visualize, It only takes one wire to break a complete circuit to ground and 6Fx sets. You need to visualize, The ECM wire etching to a bare spot to the frame, the Cputer shuts that (ecm) wire to the GPS...down = 'Shop is closed, No mods today or any day to the GPS'. You need to visualize the, aftmkt upsets the digital design (I don't know how, and so should you, until you comprehend) when the third wire attempt does not trigger a 5thFXed.





The answer.... the real answer is still ticking away since 1999, and yet, no one wants to answer the simple question.....

Would you like to diagnose a computer bike, yes or no? Noprob: You may continue to pull you clutch packs. You may continue to mod the sensor...

Let me know when 5th locks... I'm counting the decade down, (newer bikes/or otherwise).

If SUz is offering selected maps in the latest rumor mill, guess which maps will you be selecting from... Atmospherically speaking.

 

[lot boy]

let me get this straight, im to cut the pink gps wire and run it to the marble i have in my pair valve tube, and then run a jumper wire from that to my tank pad-- but only if i have done the large air box mod, or was it the small box mod----------im so confused where is mr rsd when you need him?

 

[cougar694u]

I still can't believe you're saying to run the engine with no load and bounce if off the rev limiter. Do you realize the inertia of the internal parts will spin past the rev limiter with no load.

Also, I just read in the FSM, on page 7-20, verbatim:

The ignition timing is also compensated according to the gear position and throttle position...The gear position switch has a different resistance for each gear, and the ECM understands the gear position. The ECM selects the ignition timing when the gear position is changed.[/Quote]

This would cause A/F ratio's to appear differently in each gear because different amounts of fuel are burned by the time the exhaust valve opens, depending on timing advance. Also, going by that, it confirms how the GPS works and that the ECU interprets each gear. If we modify the GPS (or it's signal) to match what the ECU expects, then there's no reason why the GPS mod won't work.

In testing last night, a 12k Ohm resistor will keep 6th gear appearing like 5th gear. I also used a wire and shorted both 5th & 6th and the measurement was almost exactly the same as using the 12k Ohm resistor, but only affects 5th & 6th, where as the 12k affects all 6. However, 12k is such a high resistance compared to that measured in 1st through 3rd, that the difference is marginal. It's close in 4th, but draws 5th & 6th down, the same as a MGPS would.

Since you're now back pedaling, saying not to test for the 'fatter map' of fixed to 6:
Do not chase the, abstract. It is unimportant how the bike runs lean/rich and every last parameter going on. Chasing the rich map is like using the parody (video) wires to troubleshoot the ECM.[/Quote]So now are you saying it won't appear to be fat?

Okay, so I'm back to testing if the 'unplugged GPS mod' will allow the ECU to spin to 10,600 vs 10,200 because it defaults to 'fix to 6'. I have a feeling that when the 'fix to 6' is in play the rev limiter will be at 10,200. If Suzuki placed 'checks and balances' to keep the bike from achieving speeds greater than 186 MPH in stock form, why would their 'fail safe' allow for speeds greater than 186 MPH? Sixth gear limits to 10,200 RPM, so the 'fixed to 6' fail safe should do the same, in theory, which is why I want to test it to know for sure instead of arguing a theory with no proof.

**EDIT**
According to the FSM, factory rev limiter is 10,600. My dyno run looks like it went to about 10,800 in 4th gear before it completely dropped. Just an FYI, and mine doesn't have any of the afore mentioned mods.

 

[2busa]

Show me in the FSM, where it says 10.2K (on pg. 7~20). Nice to see you're working the book pages. Work the book abstract now, not mine. The video shows any sensor is going to default to a f/safe system 3 ways, (common problems or if tampered with).
This bike is so hosed up (FI wise), I can't believe there is more rubber on this bike than steel, (13.5 uses 1 hose).

I noticed a speed sensor in the wiring. Think a racer needs a Speedo? The possibility of un-clipping the speed sensor; will release the 186 limit. That's your theory to chase, not the GSP. The GPS is the analog fuel plot. There is no 400rpm to chase in the GPS. The book shows you will drop the spark at 10.6 (under load), not 10.2.

I now see on page 7~20 you can spin this puppy up to, (and past) 10.6 no matter what. Who came up with the 5th map, might have come up with the 10.2 limit as well? Not one sentence, not one mention of 10.2 is ever mentioned on pg. 7~20. The 10.6 is there (all over the place) to warn you. Show me the 10.2 scenario, (as w/the 5th gear scenario).

The load on the sensors (high vacuum) at WOT (TPS), plus the low RPM at the crank sensor is going to set the 10.6 limit; is how I read the book. The free spin past 10.6 (valve tag) is obtainable under no load, (light vacuum, plus a fast spinning crank sensor). Where is the 10.2?

The more confusion to the theory, the sooner the book will explain most of the theory if not nail the 186/5th/400 for you. It shows me plenty.

Forget the, 'analog' shift points. Do you see how close the voltages are at 5th and 6th? They are so close, why would chasing such a small percentage back to 5th be the ticket? Do you now see how close the fuel spray is? Not rich, but the other sensor inputs do change that one sensor (when the GPS is out of the loop) to a cleaner map, (which is why aftmkt chases that code (GPS).

Coug, If your bike is stock, ride it in front of the house. Ride down the block connected, then pull the GPS connection apart and test again. You'll feel 6Fx in the digital. What you received connected , are the analog map parameters. What you'll feel disconnected, is each gear receiving the digital fuel plot, (not each 'analog' shift value).

Like old style points, vacuum advance (in a car), you step on the throttle, you create the same manifold pressure w/out vacuum, only in the digital. Both advance, vacuum, rpm, control the spark lead, just like the old days. You lift off the throttle, the advance changes, (FI mimics 'vacuum' electrically).

 

[dadofthree]

You guys get to the dyno.

 

[MN72Busa]

Lots of opinions here, and lots of good conversation. I'm learning a lot from this thread, and more then I would have imagined I would of. Would still like to know if Fixed 6th is richer then analog 1,2,3,4,5,6. Any way to see what the fuel curve of the digital 6 is to compared to the analog stock fuel map (Non-modified), as comparing a custom map would be pointless.

 

[2busa]

This not about dyno runs. This is how to interpret the service manual. The speed sensor is out as the 186 limiter. Someone already de-clip'd the sp/sn. Here is, "fact" w/speed runs, The GPS "IS" obviously the limiter. Found a source where the 10.2 and 5th map evolved. The mystery unravels...

http://www.sportrider.com/bikes/146_0110_hayabusa_zx_12r_top_speed/


This is a quote from: http://www.hyp4r.com/hayabusa/enhancements.htm

"I've updated this bit yet again - I though there was enough information around the web but I was wrong so here are some links and ads.
I have heard - from no less than 3 different owners the TRE does indeed work for all year models to date. Circ.2003
Officially, the word is that the speed limiter is an electronic one that retards the injector of spark to one of the cylinders once the various engine sensors reach a certain speed limit. It does not restrict engine power until then.
The ECU gathers information from the gear position and the rev meter to detect when to retard the injectors. There are apparently simple electronic units that in effect derestrict the bike ! I've been reliably informed that the US mag Sport Rider had an article on their experiment.
The TRE is available from Ivan's Rockland County Motorcycles.
It apparently tells that ECU that the bike is in 5th gear all the time and uses ECU program to match.
The 5th gear ignition map is also the best one they said ie better response.
Note they also used the Powercommander unit to compensate.
Note that replacing the ECU on a 2001 model with a 1999 model will not work.
There is more to change than the ECU. *Thanks Rick
With the update to the new 32-bit CPU the limiter restricts the max revs in 6th gear to about 10,200 rpm or so. Note that the TRE is still effective but mapping not correct although still works fine though.
Note : I have heard a heap of good reports using the TRE.
The only side effect I have heard apart from all the good stuff is an increase in fuel consumption and some hot starting issues - to be confirmed."

 

[2busa]

Because I'm jumping back and forth (186 sensor?) is because I lack 6 years of product knowledge. I'm working the Busa ECM off of your research.
OOPS, see that, I answered my own mistake in the absolute. I now remember someone saying their dyno hit 190 plus! What was I thinking!

I'm going by the last quote, (hyp4)... "The only side effect I have heard apart from all the good stuff is an increase in fuel consumption and some hot starting issues - to be confirmed."... and try to diagnose the, "increase in fuel' and 'hard starting issue"...

Does this narrow it down? If; 190 plus=fact (Don)// fat map consumption = Busa owner complaint// hard starting hot = lots of advance.... Should this help break-down, 'in theory' what is going on with the, f-safe (c31)/tune?

Now, if you're up with what (some of) your complaints might be saying about the tune, do you now see how dumping more fuel onto the selected map (booted c31map), with the Pc; might disrupt the perfect f-safe fuel setting, (compliments of nature/ECM).

 

[cougar694u]

The speed sensor is out as the 186 limiter. Someone already de-clip'd the sp/sn. Here is, "fact" w/speed runs, The GPS "IS" obviously the limiter. Found a source where the 10.2 and 5th map evolved.[/Quote]
This is old news buddy, this is what we've been talking about the whole time.

(2busa @ Jan. 27 2007,13

) I noticed a speed sensor in the wiring. Think a racer needs a Speedo? The possibility of un-clipping the speed sensor; will release the 186 limit. That's your theory to chase, not the GSP. The GPS is the analog fuel plot. There is no 400rpm to chase in the GPS. The book shows you will drop the spark at 10.6 (under load), not 10.2.

I now see on page 7~20 you can spin this puppy up to, (and past) 10.6 no matter what. Who came up with the 5th map, might have come up with the 10.2 limit as well? Not one sentence, not one mention of 10.2 is ever mentioned on pg. 7~20. The 10.6 is there (all over the place) to warn you. Show me the 10.2 scenario, (as w/the 5th gear scenario).

It doesn't use the speedometer to limit the speed, it uses a lower rev limiter in 6th gear. This is why they've found the TRE works, per the link and quote you posted.

Don't get off topic, again, we're discussing two things; 1) the GPS mod; and 2) fixed to 6 lets the bike rev to 10,600 instead of the advertised 10,200 of 6th gear.

 

[2busa]

I can't see how you could ignore pg. 7~20's '10.6' works either way, as opposed to an ad. What do you do with the FSM discussing no 5th or 10.2. Think I'd trust an ad-man?

Up to this point, the 10.6 and 6Fx are established in the book. I won't torment anyone for the cl/mod 5th map window. I'm pretty confident the answer is 6Fx. What more is there to discover.
Do you agree with the book, that the 10.6 is obtained under light and heavy loads, and the only GPS number is 6Fx'd as per code set..

 

[cougar694u]

All the FSM said was that the rev limiter is at 10,600, and it's been confirmed that in 6th gear it's lowered to 10,200 RPM, a difference of 400.

What do you do with the FSM discussing no 5th or 10.2[/Quote]The FSM clearly says that it interprets each gear and has different ignition maps for these gears.

Up to this point, the 10.6 and 6Fx are established in the book.[/Quote]I never disputed the 'fixed to 6'. I'm disputing 'fixed to 6' has a rev limit of 10,600.

Do you agree with the book, that the 10.6 is obtained under light and heavy loads, and the only GPS number is 6Fx'd as per code set[/Quote] Light and heavy loads are irrelevant as it's dependent upon gear, not throttle position or load. And I have no idea what you meant by the second part of that statement.

 

[2busa]

1st quote: The FMS "clearly says," nothing about 10.2 and 5th map. What the field (you out there) has recognized; is if c31 is set, the engine has the capability of, "Don pulling 190 out of the dyno" with the 6Fx'd (code event in play - f-safe).

2nd quote: If Don is pulling 190 (c31 coded), then the 10.6 is broken (under load) to tach in the red. What I cannot explain is the ECM workings. For example, I can only guess, or kidnap the ECM engineers to explain the finer points. I believe, the only way to find how each sensor affects the telemetry itself is how the field found the GPS to expose the, 190 (include 400)/a rich map= gas mileage drop. You found that by experimenting with the GPS.
Do I know whether the bike is better off in 5th or the 6Fx? Of course I will absolutely agree to use the 6Fx "by design"! Think I have the equipment to count the unspent gas from the exhaust, or be willing to risk 190 on the open streets to find out if I can exceed 10.6 in physical 6th gear?

3rd quote: I disagree, that the engine needing to be in a gear to spin past 10.6. Don't try it, but the book says, once that crank is borderline 10.6, just a quick blip more and the tach hits in the red.
The second part of the statement, "... and the only GPS (code) number is 6Fx'D..." Whatever the code signals to f-safe the GPS; all the code is doing is protecting the engine from frying. If any sensor fails (no matter the speed you are going), the f-safe is designed to keep running. The code, (again, by design) will harvest from the ECM, the altered tune.

Pull a wire, un-snap the GPs connectors, or install any (new) resistance factor (in between the snap connector) and you will automatically trigger the GPS (c31) 3 different ways. The conclusion will always reappear as a 6FX'd on the dash, as, c31 continues to capture the same other parameters in the whole ECM/EFI design... Each and every time.

Is the practical falling in place? Is the FSM beginning to make sense; as to how a sensor (GPS) is triggered 3 ways? Once you understand the book showing you c31 is triggered by the, TRE(s), an ohm resistor tied in to any wire, or if you reinstalled the connectors (engine pulled), and the wire end is pushed out of (either side) the connector, you receive the c31 by default.

 

[CAT3]

2Busa. Question. How exactly, in your theory, does the GPS alter the Computer Controlled function of the Hayabusa?

 

[Over_Easy]

(Rocketman @ Jan. 22 2007,06:09) 440, 441 - whatever it takes...

(Michael Keaton - Mr. Mom)

"220-221"...you almost had it.

 

[2busa]

(CAT3 @ Jan. 28 2007,20:23) 2Busa. Question. How exactly, in your theory, does the GPS alter the Computer Controlled function of the Hayabusa?

Good question, CAT. I had a guy ask me on a 13.5, (today) why his Subthrottle didn't rise like the shop manual said. He set the code and the subs did not lock. My experience was limited on the 13.5. I cannot answer the question, or what else he did to the bike.

The only answer I can deduce is the total design of the ECM/EFI System. I cannot answer your question, Cat. All I see are functions loading up as the codes are set; by altering something as a simple wire. The bike still runs and functions, none the less.
The engineering can be seen thru the disconnects. What test is no more simple to produce than a disconnect.

The disconnect says it all.

 

[2busa]

TYPICAL = 3 WIRE GPS SENSOR

TYPICAL = GENERIC TROUBLESHOOTING INSTRUCTION:

"If the speed sensor system fails ( no signal, wiring short or open), the ECM sets the top (6) gear position."

Notice the wire diagram defines, "To the "T" each possible attempt to set ANY gear map with the GPS. The theory is to watch 3 perfect signaling (pinged), wires come to their demise.

The book does not say for a, "NO SIGNAL", "I am the ECM and I have my main (ECM) line down'. 'I can no longer receive my analog 6 gear selection.' 'Oh well, you lose the analog inside the sensor.' 'Why don't you head out the door of your GPS black box and walk my ECM color line and see if we are still connected?' 'I called up a backup (6fx), because I lost communication with you to me, (From A to B to B to A = uninterrupted ping).

The book does not say, "The 5th can be found if you disconnect the main ECM wire from the GPS, then ground that one wire from either the ECM or GPS. What the troubleshoot says, "It doesn't matter which side you ohm to ground or ground direct". I now deduce a cut wire dangling from the GPS. The 6Fx'D defaults to 6 (on the dash) until the guy (from the gps) reconnects the broken wire.
I have found the broken wire dangling from the GPS (see img). The bike does default to 6 (no matter what mods you do or buy) you should see the communication loss defaulting to the c31 as a typical example of following what the book actually will tell you in the absolute. We need; the trade secret pieces to continue puzzle.

The book also explains nothing else.... except you can repair the bike if you can figure out what the bike tells you and not what the product(s) is falsely claiming = more gears...

NOTE: In the diagram, the one ECM wire is direct to the GPS. Look in the wire diagram for the other 2 wires to junction off to the other parameters that you and I would love to know. Trade secret maybe? Book is showing the engineering when the 190/F/R-timing change to 6Fx. That is all it does, and basically that is all I know, until I buy a new updated ECM, (bike included).

 

[cougar694u]

Your deduction is wrong, in regards to the loose wire from the GPS. Yes, the wire is disconnected from the GPS, but it's only a grounded wire through X ohms of resistance; however, the ECU sees 15k ohms of resistance (in this diagram). The ECU knows no difference, whether it's through the resistor in the GPS or the 'shorted' resistor, 15k ohms is 15k ohms is 15K ohms. If a signal traverses from A to B, it will still get from A to B. If a signal traverses from B to A, it will still get from B to A.

The GPS is merely a resistor pack with 6 different resistances, depending on which land you measure. It cannot, in any way, communicate with the ECU. It can only allow current to pass through it, and depending on the land(s) used, provide X ohms of resistance.

There is no signal sent from the GPS to the ECU, it is simply a grounding mechanism with multiple grounding points.

This is where your theory is flawed. As far as the ECU is concerned, all wires are intact as they should. Lets look at the first diagram; the blue wire is in place and grounds when in neutral, the black wire is in place and is grounded 100% of the time, and the red wire is in place and provides X ohms of resistance. None of the wires 'loop-back' to the red wire, so the ECU cannot pick up if the red wire coming FROM the GPS is disconnected or not (governed by the SPDT switch, the red wire is either connected to 15K Ohms of resistance or X Ohms resistance through the GPS). The second diagram is this exact same thing, except the ECU is only faced with 15k Ohms of resistance.

Any ping from the ECU down any wire will pass. Again, there is no loop-back in the GPS. Even if the ECU emitted some analog frequency signal into the ground and listened on the red wire for that signal, it will also pass. Why? Because the red wire is grounded through 15K Ohms, exactly the same as if it where grounded through the GPS.

You need to stop with your deductions because they are false. Spreading false information is the same as lying, and I don't take kindly to liars. If you don't know how it works, simply state you do not know how it works. Knowing how it works on one manufacturer is not knowing how it work on a different manufacturer. If you have no physical proof how it works, do not make assumptions, or deductions, based on what you think you read. No where in the FSM does it state that the 'fix to 6' has a rev limit of 10,600 or 10,200, and it also does not state that 6th gear has a rev limit of 10,200. It also does not state that 'fix to 6' has a fatter fuel trim. However, it does state that the rev limiter is set at 10,600, and we do know that in 6th gear we are limited to 10,200. We know this from testing, and will confirm it when I go to the dyno. The FSM also does state that it has different ignition maps for each gear, which may, or may not, backup the 10,200 rev limit in 6th gear.

I've already got the dyno time funded, but I'm not going to waste $40 of the .org's members' money just to test the 'fix to 6' rev limiter and fuel. I'm waiting till I have a zener diode circuit that I know limits voltage so I can test your theory, my theory, and someone else's theory.

 

[KRUZIN]

Wait I got it !.......... well maybe not........ ah... yes there it is. I've been known to throw around some big words before and add and subtract some numerical numbers at one time or another, have you tried maybe a smaller sprocket size on the rear wheel and solder them there wires to the KANIVALIN ROD attached to the CLUTCH PLATE MECHANISM......