The starting problems start!

[Mr Bogus]

you need an amp draw reading.... there are plenty of inductive units that work just fine for pretty low $$.. 8v at 5A is a lot different than 8V at 50A and put you in completely different directions..

if you just bought a new battery, it is unlikely that the charging system working right or not fried it that fast.. (would have been bad to start with)..

When you gotta make a living finding this stuff, you pick the easiest path of diagnosis.. rather than spend a bunch of time checking stuff, find out the basics.. volts and amps are first in line so you know where to start looking..

 

[oskala]

I drove it home during lunch. 7 minute ride. Before i left the battery was 13.4 volts while running it was 14.3

When i got home it wouldnt start back up. Voltage sitting was 12.5 and when i hit the starter it lugged and voltage went down to 8.5.

I drove the truck back to work, but when i get home im going to check the voltage after its been sitting for a while and see if it floats back up.

I was checking the voltage at the battery and not the rectifier.

I need to know how to check the rectifier, what wires to get the voltage and resistance readings, and what those readings are supposed to be.

It also seems like the stator may be overcharging. But i dont know what the AC voltage is supposed to be comming from it and i dont know what the resistance is supposed to be on the 3 coils.

Anyone have these specifications?

Hi Jeff, the stator is working fine as it's putting out over 14 volts. The retifier/regulator drops the voltage down from the stator to around 13.5ish volts to charge your Batt.. By using a multi-meter across the Batt. terminals your checking the output of the retifier/regulator or in general the whole charging system. And as said before I think the retifier/regulator is faulty as it's putting out to much juice. If you have a new Batt. that's good but I have seen bad Batts right out of the box especially if they have been sitting around for awhile.

Get an amp meter, inductive or inline and run an amp draw test when the starter is cold and hot. I'll bet when the starter is hot it will draw to many amps. And if the charging system has been over charging for a while with the previous owner there may have been some starter damage due to low Batt. current. from the Batt. being over charged and sulfating.

 

[Viperam]

Jeff, if possible do an Ohm test on your cables to see if you have to much resistance in your cables.

What is an acceptable resistance through those short ass cables?

Hi Jeff, the stator is working fine as it's putting out over 14 volts. .

I feel the need to check the coil resistance and measure the ac voltage produced from it. Do you have those specs?

And as said before I think the retifier/regulator is faulty as it's putting out to much juice.

14.4-14.8 does seem high. But that doesnt explain why my battery would go from 13.8 to 12.4 after a 7 mile ride. Right?

Get an amp meter, inductive or inline and run an amp draw test when the starter is cold and hot. I'll bet when the starter is hot it will draw to many amps. And if the charging system has been over charging for a while with the previous owner there may have been some starter damage due to low Batt. current. from the Batt. being over charged and sulfating.

Is it hard to get the starter off of it to have it tested.... Then again, if they test it they are going to put it on a load and see what the amps are, and i can check that on the bike without taking it off. Do you know what the amp range is supposed to be?

I know on my '09 Busa that there is a headlight cut-out feature. Does anyone know if Jeff's '03 has this same feature?

The headlights are not cutting off when im hitting the starter. They dim. Only a little when its starting strong, but when everything his warm they dim more and more when the starter slows down, and then they go dark. Wait a few minutes try again and they are bright again.

 

[GIXERHP]

On a Busa if the voltage drops 12 volts the coils will not fire!

It sounds like its the battery, with the miles you have there really shouldn't be any thing wrong with the starter!

 

[Viperam]

On a Busa if the voltage drops 12 volts the coils will not fire!

It sounds like its the battery, with the miles you have there really shouldn't be any thing wrong with the starter!

So you think the day old battery is bad..... Ive seen it happen.
However when its low on the bike and i jump it from my optima redtop in my srt-10, there is no change in cranking speed. Then i take the battery out and put it on the charger and it wont take any. Says full charge.

Im going to take the battery back out and bring it in to have it tested. If its **** then im going to get another battery and trickle charge it.

Do you think me charging the battery out of the box at 2 amps could have fried it? It gave a 2 amp charging time of 3 hours and i did that to the minute. Duralast.....

 

[djsin]

i didn't bother to read all of the posts...but i think its a relay problem..because at no point while your cranking her over should the headlight be on at all...the relay shuts it off while you crank it over....

 

[Viperam]

i didn't bother to read all of the posts...but i think its a relay problem..because at no point while your cranking her over should the headlight be on at all...the relay shuts it off while you crank it over....

Location of relay so i can replace?

 

[Viperam]

I called the dealer and they called suzuki 14.3-14.7 is acceptable voltage for idle to 5k rpm.

 

[oskala]

What is an acceptable resistance through those short ass cables?

I feel the need to check the coil resistance and measure the ac voltage produced from it. Do you have those specs?


14.4-14.8 does seem high. But that doesnt explain why my battery would go from 13.8 to 12.4 after a 7 mile ride. Right?


Is it hard to get the starter off of it to have it tested.... Then again, if they test it they are going to put it on a load and see what the amps are, and i can check that on the bike without taking it off. Do you know what the amp range is supposed to be?



The headlights are not cutting off when im hitting the starter. They dim. Only a little when its starting strong, but when everything his warm they dim more and more when the starter slows down, and then they go dark. Wait a few minutes try again and they are bright again.

Hi Jeff, I don't have a manual yet but didn't someone post a link to an online manual?

With Stators they usually go bad by shorting out the windings. You can do an Ohm test on the stator (while it's not running) to see if the stator is bad (grounded) but like I said your stator is putting out enough juice that I wouldn't worry about it. Then you can do a stator output test with a volt meter in series but again with your charging system putting out 14 plus volts I think the stator is fine. You can pull the hot lead of the retifier/regulator and test it's output with your volt meter by running your meter in series between the retifier/regulator and the Batt.. But it will be the same as just running your leads to the Batt. terminals with the reticifer/regulator connected.

Now for the starter, I don't know what the amp draw for the starter is but hopefully through the online downloadable manual you should be able to get those specs. It should be close to the same whether the starter is cold or hot. Without the specs you can see what the amp draw is when the starter is cold and then when it's hot. There should be very little difference between the two. If there is then I would pull the starter and pull it apart to check out the armature, brushes, and magnets. You can also check your starter bearings at this time.

Without knowing the acceptable cable resistance you can cheat on checking the Ohm resistance in your cables by seeing how much resistance they have. Being short there should be very little drop in resistance. I'll bet you can do a web search to get the accepatble cable resistance for the different size cables. Just remember that the longer the cable the more resistance it will have.

 

[oskala]

I called the dealer and they called suzuki 14.3-14.7 is acceptable voltage for idle to 5k rpm.

Really? I find it interesting the dealer called Suzuki and didn't just go to the manual to get those specs. I did an HD's charging system last Spring and that bike was putting out the same voltage as your charging system and he cooked a brand new Batt. in no time. I replaced the regulator and all is well with a charge rate in the high 13's.

 

[Viperam]

Really? I find it interesting the dealer called Suzuki and didn't just go to the manual to get those specs. I did an HD's charging system last Spring and that bike was putting out the same voltage as your charging system and he cooked a brand new Batt. in no time. I replaced the regulator and all is well with a charge rate in the high 13's.

He called because hes had a few calls this week about some issues hes had with 2 regulators he recently sold.

So when i had them same issue with the stock one, it was looking for easy clarificiation.

 

[oskala]

i didn't bother to read all of the posts...but i think its a relay problem..because at no point while your cranking her over should the headlight be on at all...the relay shuts it off while you crank it over....

Great info!! I'm new to the Busa and didn't know if the Gen I bikes had the headlight cutout. But, IMHO even with the headlights on during cranking the bike should still spin over fast enough to start. All HD's have the headlight on during cranking and we're talking big CC's with no starting problems.

Why not just disconnect the headlight relay to see if there is a difference in starting when the bike is hot? If there is then a new relay is in order and you may be able to save some cash and get one at an auto parts store?

Now you have me thinking, why doesn't the relay act up with current running through it when the bike is cold? Or is the relay in such a spot that engine heat makes the relay hot even without current flowing through it?

 

[oskala]

Ok, I did some research on 12 volt Battery charging and found this on Wikipedia:

Car battery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In this article they are saying that 14.4 is the max charge rate and the Batt. starts gassing at this voltage. It also says: "the continous-preservation charge with Max is 13.2volts".

Cool, I learned something new today. Personally I like a charge rate in the high 13's.

But what does "continous-preservation charge with Max is 13.2" mean?

 

[Mr Bogus]

Ok, I did some research on 12 volt Battery charging and found this on Wikipedia:

Car battery - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In this article they are saying that 14.4 is the max charge rate and the Batt. starts gassing at this voltage. It also says: "the continous-preservation charge with Max is 13.2volts".

Cool, I learned something new today. Personally I like a charge rate in the high 13's.

But what does "continous-preservation charge with Max is 13.2" mean?

real quick:
charging voltage is almost directly related to battery condition.. you MUST take charge rate into consideration as well as voltage..

Voltages in the high 13's indicate a battery with some time on it.. Mid to low 13's usually indicate a battery that is accepting a charge well. As a battery sulfates, it gets harder to charge (hence the higher voltages)

Continuous preservation voltage relates to what a "good" battery voltage should be cruising down the road with everything working as it should..

older the battery, the higher this number will be.. at 13.7 and up? you are getting into the yellow zone with anything in the 14's being in the red..

Lower than the 13.2, you are looking at some deficiency in the charging system..

What needs done here is the amp draw compared to the voltage reading while cranking..

Batteries can be "intermittent" but it is rather rare.. (cell can short and then clear the short)

Chasing issues like this requires you be methodical.. start with the basics and work your way out... physical checks to include a battery test, cable check etc..

then you need to know what the volt/amp numbers are at cranking/running ..

you are just spinning your wheels otherwise (although you might get lucky and hit the problem)

you are over thinking this entire problem IMHO..

basics fix 90% of all issues but you gotta check them..

 

[bandito]

Viperam,

Here's my recent experience, for what it's worth. Mine was acting just like yours, giving trouble starting only when hot. I disconnected cables at battery, starter and starter relay, cleaned everything (all connections looked OK). Removed and dismantled starter, again no problems found. Put back together and so far (two trips over the weekend to get it hot), it cranks with no problem after it is hot. Only difference was a good cleaning of the terminals at the battery, starter and the starter relay.

Good luck with yours.

 

[2busa]

14.7v is feeding the deep current draw. At idle, she purrs at 14.3v and that is normal. If anything, the charging system is working fine and so is the volt/reg to bump up to 14.7v.

To me, this seems like corrosion sitting watching TV where it was parked for all this time with the original owner. So, bottom line, you jump the starter directly off the battery.

You can have the key off to do this. What you are doing is to see if the starter is the problem or a bad/corroded ground source. You know the charging system is good. You know the battery is good, being it will hold over 12v on recovery.

Bottom line, you have to remote start the starter directly off the battery to see if she overheats at the brushes, but I sort of doubt that, being it spins well to begin with. So, I would assume the heat through the wires might show a poor connection. Therefore, the remote start can eliminate the starter motor and now you are off to the relay box or a poor ground.

 

[Mr Bogus]

make double sure it is in neutral....

 

[Supergank1]

seen this problem on a car and the new starter armature had a bad spot in it..if you had a growler you could check it?? seen a few new batteries also do something like this if the plates inside are bad?

 

[oskala]

real quick:
charging voltage is almost directly related to battery condition.. you MUST take charge rate into consideration as well as voltage..

Voltages in the high 13's indicate a battery with some time on it.. Mid to low 13's usually indicate a battery that is accepting a charge well. As a battery sulfates, it gets harder to charge (hence the higher voltages)

Continuous preservation voltage relates to what a "good" battery voltage should be cruising down the road with everything working as it should..

older the battery, the higher this number will be.. at 13.7 and up? you are getting into the yellow zone with anything in the 14's being in the red..

Lower than the 13.2, you are looking at some deficiency in the charging system..

What needs done here is the amp draw compared to the voltage reading while cranking..

Batteries can be "intermittent" but it is rather rare.. (cell can short and then clear the short)

Chasing issues like this requires you be methodical.. start with the basics and work your way out... physical checks to include a battery test, cable check etc..

then you need to know what the volt/amp numbers are at cranking/running ..

you are just spinning your wheels otherwise (although you might get lucky and hit the problem)

you are over thinking this entire problem IMHO..

basics fix 90% of all issues but you gotta check them..

Thanks for the Batt. info.

Did you mean I'm over thinking Jeff's problem? If so I'm just trying to answer his questions as they come up even when some are redundant. Like I said in my first posts, to diagnosis electrical problems I ALWAYS start with a good Batt., check all electrical connections especially the ground, then a charging system check, and then in Jeff's case I'd do a cold and hot amp draw test for the starter. Just trying to help out a fellow Busa rider.

 

[BusaWhipped]

Starter Relay troubleshooting.