The starting problems start!

[Mr Bogus]

The term "hydrolic compression"is out of the question?Just thinking!I have change a starter motor and a battery to my motor boat(Mercruiser 4.2 lits)because of that reason.I was thinking I had a weak battery or faulty starter but finaly I discover the problem(sea water) inside a combustion chamber(just one ...of six)High compression can be caused from...liquids(of any kind) insight the chamber......closed valve(s)...bad cam timing.Just a thought......Hope is something more simple though lease:

hydrolock good thought... at 4K on the ticker it would really suck..

 

[Viperam]

The term "hydrolic compression"is out of the question?Just thinking!I have change a starter motor and a battery to my motor boat(Mercruiser 4.2 lits)because of that reason.I was thinking I had a weak battery or faulty starter but finaly I discover the problem(sea water) inside a combustion chamber(just one ...of six)High compression can be caused from...liquids(of any kind) insight the chamber......closed valve(s)...bad cam timing.Just a thought......Hope is something more simple though lease:

No your over looking it starts fine in the morning, when hot and shut off, 2 minute sequence of "Weak weak weak, FAST, weak fast, weak..... dead. 3 hours later, no charge and it fires fine.

 

[Viperam]

I do want to note when i fired it cold yesterday Voltage is 14.4v and at 5k rpm its up to 14.8v

After riding 40 miles yesterday, it was 14.1v at idle and at 5k it was holding a second or two at random voltages from 6.2v-12.9v, back to idle 13.8. Then i got drunk and went to bed. Nothing else to report

 

[oskala]

Yeah!, A guy from another riders forum i posted this thread on, recognized my screenname and my truck from yet another forum. Out of the blue, he says, "Jeff you want me to walk over there and take a look" We are both military stationed at the same base.

He has a self built 1397 drag bike that he is converting back over for street and tracks with curves. He walked over to my house last night and hung out for an hour. He gave a 30 minute 9000 point visual inspection on the entire bike. Pointing out various **** i wouldnt have noticed. Guy seems to know his ****!

Tonight we are taking the bike apart and hes bringing all the parts over to, Adjust chain, lower an inch w/Dogbone and spacers, pair valve removal, small box mod, maybe install "Brocks?" full exhaust with high swept megaphone, spark plugs, install HID kit, custom seat, grips, and a **** load of other things i cant remember.

On to the problem, We think its down to cable or rectifier. Hes seen the problem and confident it will be fixed this weekend. And with the mods, were doing he says it will feel like a different bike.

GREAT!!! Good luck my friend!!!

 

[Viperam]

Stator ohms good. Put out 83v. Swapped rectifier out for known good. Replaced cable. hot wired starter while hot with truck battery and jumper cables. Same problem. Removed starter disassembled sanded commutator, ohm coils, checked brushes. its no better. So I ordered a new starter, comming this week
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[Viperam]

Starter ordered from DB Electrical Starter-Alternator for $119 with a one year warranty. Comes in wednesday morning.

I made sure to get the Green label one from the 2003 and newer bikes. part number 31100-24F10 No cracked blocks for me.

 

[Viperam]

Video coming soon... 2 neighbors of mine came over after i got the starter on. Same symptoms, they were as dumbfounded as I so we filmed it to show everyone what its doing.

Brand new starter, Brand new fully charged battery.

Starts good cold
Weak when hot.
Jumped directly from battery no change
1000 CCA Optima grounded to starter case and hotwired. SAME ****ING THING!
Spins slow, hit again and again, randomly spins fast and starts up.

So we eliminated all the wiring. Thats why i bought the starter to begin with.

Could the starter clutch be dragging? Timing randomly advanced? Partial Hydrolock? WTF?

 

[Viperam]

Im thinking random timing advance while starting thats igniting the air/fuel mix while the piston is still on the compression stroke putting strain on the starter....?

Im lost any thoughts?

 

[IG.]

I read carefuly your original post with symptoms. I would not blame the battery because when you hit randomly, it starts right up - so it's not the battery.

However, the fact is your lights dim which means even with a good battery overall voltage in the system drops significantly. I can think only of two things which could do that with the battery being good.

1. You may have a short somewhere in the starting circuit which shows up when the bike is warm.

2. Something is holding the starter motor, and when any electrical motor is held, it's current draw is much higher - hence the lights dim. Anyone knows that if any appliance with electrical motor stalls while the power is on - the thing is going to overheat (because of higher current draw).

Let's try this experiment since you have your friends to help you. Start the bike cold, let it warm up for let's say 10 min - should be pretty hot by then. Shut it off. Try to start and confirm the symptom is there. With the help of your buddies push start the bike a few times in a row. If the bike starts up fine the blame goes to the starting circuitry including the starter, gears, etc. If the bike is having similar difficulties when trying to push start - the blame goes to the rest of the system.

I have a hunch push starting a hot bike will work consistently. Let's assume this is the case. Then it's the starter and related stuff. Let's wait for you result to confirm.

In the meantime, there is something I remembered from my riding buddy, but not sure and maybe someone can clarify. If something was not installed properly in starting gear, etc., and when the bike is warm it simply binds and resists turning - so it binds so badly that poor starter can't turn, but when past the binding point, the starter is able to pull.

 

[Mr Bogus]

here we go again...

Proper diagnosis is a method... not a hunt and peck operation..

You need basic tools.. (volt and amp meters)

Start at battery, work way forward one step at a time..

so far we have 2 batteries? 2 starters? a few hours wasted checking charging system? (not sure how that even entered the fray)...

The batteries and starters we can for the sake of the argument say are ok (not a good idea IMO but...)

pull the spark plugs out of the motor when the problem is occurring (please blow out the plug wells first with air hose)

crank motor with the above to meters attached and collect the readings.. (Volts/amps)

Without hearing the motor crank over, it is impossible to tell if this is a general hard draw issue (starter drive/gearing drag) or a possible high cylinder pressure issue (plugs out reveal this)..

at this point you would have saved money to let a pro look at it would be my bet.. *(batteries, starter and time)

 

[Viperam]

I read carefuly your original post with symptoms. I would not blame the battery because when you hit randomly, it starts right up - so it's not the battery.

However, the fact is your lights dim which means even with a good battery overall voltage in the system drops significantly. I can think only of two things which could do that with the battery being good.

1. You may have a short somewhere in the starting circuit which shows up when the bike is warm..

Thank you for the attention to detail. One thing to consider is i bypassed the starting circuit by jumping the starter with a big battery by grounding the starter case and hitting the positive electrode on it.

2. Something is holding the starter motor,

Let's try this experiment since you have your friends to help you. Start the bike cold, let it warm up for let's say 10 min - should be pretty hot by then. Shut it off. Try to start and confirm the symptom is there. With the help of your buddies push start the bike a few times in a row. If the bike starts up fine the blame goes to the starting circuitry including the starter, gears, etc. If the bike is having similar difficulties when trying to push start - the blame goes to the rest of the system.

I have a hunch push starting a hot bike will work consistently. Let's assume this is the case. Then it's the starter and related stuff. Let's wait for you result to confirm.

Confirmed. I got hit hot during lunch and got my neighbor to push start me at VERY low speed just faster than i could waddle myself. dump clutch and it fires right up, over and over again. Hes tired, and now i feel a little closer to the solution.

In the meantime, there is something I remembered from my riding buddy, but not sure and maybe someone can clarify. If something was not installed properly in starting gear, etc., and when the bike is warm it simply binds and resists turning - so it binds so badly that poor starter can't turn, but when past the binding point, the starter is able to pull.

This is exactly where im at with this. I think the gearing from the starter to the motor, or the clutch could be the culprit. I dont think its the engine bearings because it runs so damn good, no smoke, no oil usage, and no noise.

 

[IG.]

If you could contact the previous owner and ask him what work was done on starter/starting gear. It seems he tried to fix it, but installed something incorrectly and gave up and sold the bike.

IIRC, my buddy installed starting gear incorrectly and it was binding even when cold, so he knew right away where the problem was. I've never done it, so someone who's been inside there can advise what to do.

The last experiment to confirm this, LOL, if you could get a source of heat (like a hair drier) and when the bike is cold, start her up just to confirm that you got a clean start. Shut her down and then try to heat the starter assembly for good 15 min or so, and then try to start the bike. If you experience the problem, that's it.

Another thought. For '03 bike with such low mileage, it is suspicious why there is a problem with starter/gear. My guess would be that the bike wasn't ridden much, and my further guess would be that the battery was often pretty weak when the bike was started, and my further guess would be that this could mess up starting gear or even cause a broken/cracked case, and that's what the guy was trying to fix. I am not sure if '03 model was prone to cracking cases when starting with a weak battery (we know that '99 - '01 models have this problem from the factory), but it is reasonable to consider such scenario. Meaning, carefully examine that area for broken/cracked case, anything misaligned or suspicious. Again, I've never been in there firsthand.

There is even a mod for this - the thing looks like a ring which goes over the case in order to strengthen it - forgot the name of the mod, but I am sure someone will spell it out. Oh - 'Case Saver' I think, and I am sure you can buy from one of the website sponsors. Also, when someone mentions the name of this mod, do a search on it. There were very good pictures showing how everything looks - this might be helpful.

 

[NCpanther01]

Bruh I just PM you! This problem is common for Gen 1 Busa's. Next time open your gas tank and release the vapors. I have an 02 and had the same problems I finally fixed it going with 24 volts and dual fans. A search on the subject explains better than I on why it happens only when hot!!

 

[Viperam]

If you could contact the previous owner and ask him what work was done on starter/starting gear. It seems he tried to fix it, but installed something incorrectly and gave up and sold the bike..

Highly likely he tried to work on it. But as typical for craigslist screwovers, i cant find him now.

IIRC, my buddy installed starting gear incorrectly and it was binding even when cold, so he knew right away where the problem was. I've never done it, so someone who's been inside there can advise what to do

The last experiment to confirm this, LOL, if you could get a source of heat (like a hair drier) and when the bike is cold, start her up just to confirm that you got a clean start. Shut her down and then try to heat the starter assembly for good 15 min or so, and then try to start the bike. If you experience the problem, that's it...

Man thats a great idea. i Have a heat gun. Ill take the cover off it so i dont wrinkle the paint, and heat up the gears.

Another thought. For '03 bike with such low mileage, it is suspicious why there is a problem with starter/gear. My guess would be that the bike wasn't ridden much, and my further guess would be that the battery was often pretty weak when the bike was started, and my further guess would be that this could mess up starting gear or even cause a broken/cracked case, and that's what the guy was trying to fix.

The 2003 was the year they fixed the kickback problem. I have the current "Safe" starter. Green label they call it. Ive had the idler gear cover off and i saw no cracking, and i inspected every inch of the engine. The 2003 has a starter gear 3 times as massive and incorporates a torque limiter so if the engine tries to shoot backwards the starter clutch wil slip instead of cracking the casing

Bruh I just PM you! This problem is common for Gen 1 Busa's. Next time open your gas tank and release the vapors. I have an 02 and had the same problems I finally fixed it going with 24 volts and dual fans. A search on the subject explains better than I on why it happens only when hot!!

I get the idea that a vacume in the tank, or pressures from fuel vapors would effect the fueling, causing rich/lean conditions. But reading other aspects of my thread explains the weak starting is caused from starter drag which is being caused by some mechanical binding between the starter and the engine. IE: Idler gear/starter clutch assembly.

But to give credit where it is due, i just went outside and opened the gas tank, and there was no change.

 

[IG.]

Be careful with the heat gun - don't hold it too close so you don't damage anything. All you need is to get it to 150 - 170 deg I am guessing.

 

[NCpanther01]

I get the idea that a vacume in the tank, or pressures from fuel vapors would effect the fueling, causing rich/lean conditions. But reading other aspects of my thread explains the weak starting is caused from starter drag which is being caused by some mechanical binding between the starter and the engine. IE: Idler gear/starter clutch assembly.


Roger that!

Please excuse me I'm still at work. Busa rather large engine puts a strain on the electrical system as well. I'll look for the thread, but I had the same EXACT problem fixing it dual fans and going 24volt. You have to keep these batteries on a tender. May I ask do you have a GIpro connected as well?

 

[Viperam]

Here are the videos.

- hayabusa starting problem[/url]

- hayabusa starting prblem[/url]

- hayabusa starting problem.[/url]

- 2003 Hayabusa starting issue.[/url]
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[Viperam]

a couple bike shops confirmed my suspicion that the starter clutch was seizing up on the shaft. Tonight I'm heating up the assembly with a heat gun to replicate the issue
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[oskala]

pull the spark plugs out of the motor when the problem is occurring (please blow out the plug wells first with air hose)

crank motor with the above to meters attached and collect the readings.. (Volts/amps)

Without hearing the motor crank over, it is impossible to tell if this is a general hard draw issue (starter drive/gearing drag) or a possible high cylinder pressure issue (plugs out reveal this)..

+1

 

[Wag]

I have an '03. The '03's have a KNOWN starter problem. I took mine to the shop at the time and they replaced the starter motor. Have not had any problems since and that's five years now.

So, since you replaced your starter motor, it makes me wonder whether or not you got another '03 motor and didn't solve the problem.

I think you can use an '04 to '07 starter motor on that bike and be just fine with it.

Keep us posted.

--Wag--