Afghanistan....

[Bumblebee]

Ok, I will take that as enough detail.
My father's grandmother was Cherokee, full blood(married a white guy, who da thunk it, lol).
I was the "Irish Bug" in school, as said my Ma's from N Ireland.
I can see that if your family was directly called a savage that it would upset you, which was Not my intention.
My interpretation of history sees native Americans helping settlers, many on both sides wanting peace, but as always, devisive folks on both sides ruined it(as you see we learn little to nothing from history).
A Native American is Not a savage to me, that title IS horrible, and needs reserved for the worst of the worst..like the Taliban.
I try to always look at the individual, so in your case, I can see your problem with the word, but again, just know it wasn't sent maliciously in your direction.
I respect people like you just based on conversation, and until this thread, I had no clue of your heritage, color, religeon, just that you are a soldier and our neighbor, who rides bikes...and that should show that color, race, heritage, etc are of little signifcance to me(respectfully) as I want to know the person, not what they appear to be.
And with that said, I will(out of respect) not use that word in any future conversations with you. And not from a sissy safe space place, but I'll rank it as racist and disrespectful to you, as it is.
Is that how I see the Taliban? Yep
Is that how I see you and your heritage?
Nope.
I would like to think this drawn out discussion can show how close 2 peoples' thought process can be, yet one detail can significantly derail an otherwise well intentioned conversation.
And that if we all(myself included) would take the time to hear the other side out, we would end up with Alot more compromise and probably some unexpected agreements.

....and this my friend is why this forum has survived as long as it has...because we forum users are real people who can converse and learn from one another....

I have a close friend of whom I've served with for many years who is a member of the Cherokee Nation...he was in the US Rangers but moved to Canada and joined our Spec Ops...great guy and I've been to meet his parents and fellow tribe members in Oklahoma...they were going to give me a tribal name but I told them my tribe had already given me one.....what a great bunch of people and they treated me like family.

 

[sixpack577]

....and this my friend is why this forum has survived as long as it has...because we forum users are real people who learn from one another....

I have a close friend of whom I've served with for many years who is a member of the Cherokee Nation...he was in the US Rangers but moved to Canada and joined our Spec Ops...great guy and I've been to meet his parents and fellow tribe members in Oklahoma...they were going to give me a tribal name but I told them my tribe had already given me one.....what a great bunch of people and they treated me like family.

Absoloutely!
I like how this has turned out, and I have always enjoyed the diversity of opinions here.
Along with the who and why, to help give one another a better perspective from different points of veiw...and most importantly, the mutual respect in the process.



and I would like to see more credit given to native american veterans, U.S and Allies.
Like the movie "Wind Talkers"
That had it not been for our native american soldiers...the allies could not have defeated Hitler.

 

[SSGT_B]

I still like pie

 

[Bumblebee]

Absoloutely!
I like how this has turned out, and I have always enjoyed the diversity of opinions here.
Along with the who and why, to help give one another a better perspective from different points of veiw...and most importantly, the mutual respect in the process.



and I would like to see more credit given to native american veterans, U.S and Allies.
Like the movie "Wind Talkers"
That had it not been for our native american soldiers...the allies could not have defeated Hitler.

From all I've read, the Native Americans had the highest volunteer rate per capita to join the US forces in WW2 and that there were around 30,000 in the war.

Years ago I read a short story of Native Americans in the 101st and how they fought with honor....they were fierce fighters.

 

[Bumblebee]

I still like pie

.......as you should my friend, as you should....

It's just trailing off blueberry season and my wife picked a few quarts so I should be seeing at least one blueberry pie in my near future...

 

[sixpack577]

From all I've read, the Native Americans had the highest volunteer rate per capita to join the US forces in WW2 and that there were around 30,000 in the war.

Years ago I read a short story of Native Americans in the 101st and how they fought with honor....they were fierce fighters.

Yes sir, LOTS of Great stories that still need to be told.

 

[kim windsor]

Tristen thank you for your service you have all of my respect.

 

[fallenarch]

Chicago statistics on homicides will disagree with you Arch.

My point was that people see what's going on here and look at us like we look at the Taliban. I'm not a Taliban sympathizer in any sense, but it's easy to be judgemental and recognize we all have flaws. No one's getting it perfect and sometimes we have to live with imperfections.

 

[fallenarch]

One thing that bothers me: Who authorized that C-17 to take off or even throttle the engines up enough to move the plane with people all around it? My guess is someone is going to get a court marshall. When you think about it, there was no reason to risk those lives or the plane at that point in the evacuation and this is a completely different media circus if they had grounded the planes for safety.

 

[Bigboy Busa2]

Can people still deny the truth?

 

[TallTom]

Can people still deny the truth?

View attachment 1639875

Lol. America is in full on guerilla warfare.

 

[JeffSyh]

And the disgrace thickens... so U.S embassy in Kabul released a form you have to fill out to leave Afghanistan and need to reimburse the U.S goverment for the flight out of Afghanistan simply amazing....

 

[Bumblebee]

And the disgrace thickens... so U.S embassy in Kabul released a form you have to fill out to leave Afghanistan and need to reimburse the U.S goverment for the flight out of Afghanistan simply amazing.... View attachment 1639968

Seems shocking however, there may be more to this they may not be showing in order to "grandstand" this issue in order to create a "smear."

I'm always skeptical of this sort of thing popping up during a rescue operation....especially when there is a picture of a C-17 completely packed with Afghan people taking off.....I'm sure this form wasn't in existence then and I'd wager it still isn't...

 

[mark3evo]

so after 7 days when Taliban took Kabul , they said Woman's rights would be protected with continuing education, the reality is ...it's not but returning to the old way

a snake can shed its skin several times but it's still a snake

Afghanistan's women do not face an uncertain future... They face an unpleasant future that everyone knows is coming...but it's not uncertain. we know what the Taliban are going to do because we've been here before 20 years ago.

Taliban replaced with the Taliban

but then again Saudi women are a just a few steps away from the Taliban treatment

Only four countries recognised the Taliban when it was last in power: neighbouring Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and Turkmenistan

 

[mark3evo]

who are our friends ??? Saudi and Pakistanis laughing behind our backs - not forgetting Russia and China

"On 27 September 1996, the Taliban, with military support by Pakistan and financial support from Saudi Arabia, seized Kabul and founded the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan.[107] They imposed their fundamentalist interpretation of Islam in areas under their control, issuing edicts forbidding women to work outside the home, attend school or to leave their homes unless accompanied by a male relative.[108] According to the Pakistani expert Ahmed Rashid, "between 1994 and 1999, an estimated 80,000 to 100,000 Pakistanis trained and fought in Afghanistan" on the side of the Taliban.[109][110]"

 

[Bumblebee]

so after 7 days when Taliban took Kabul , they said Woman's rights would be protected with continuing education, the reality is ...it's not but returning to the old way

a snake can shed its skin several times but it's still a snake

Afghanistan's women do not face an uncertain future... They face an unpleasant future that everyone knows is coming...but it's not uncertain. we know what the Taliban are going to do because we've been here before 20 years ago.

Taliban replaced with the Taliban

but then again Saudi women are a just a few steps away from the Taliban treatment

Only four countries recognised the Taliban when it was last in power: neighbouring Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates and Turkmenistan

The Taliban will not change their ideology....the people of Afghanistan have seen life depicted by the west and liked it.....however, they will not fight for that life as seen by how quickly and easily the ANA gave up...if a military trained by the west gave up so easily, we can't expect the average citizen to fight for this type of lifestyle...

If you won't fight for it, you don't deserve it and will get whatever is given to you...

I was talking to one of my former colleagues and he sees a media blackout coming soon along with electrical power shut downs along with internet and cell phone coverage coming to a halt...

Keep them in the dark and keep prying eyes out of their business....life is about to get very difficult for the people of Afghanistan...

 

[fallenarch]

The problem all along has been that the Afghans who wanted out mobbed the airport. Now we have the Afghans making it too dangerous to approach the gates of the airport. Soon, we will have to take action against the very Afghans we are trying to get out.

I have a relative who was in Afghanistan 4 times. 3 as a Marine and once as a civilian. He thinks there are Taliban agitants in the crowds trying to make an orderly exit impossible. Apparently, there are Americans who were told to leave early this year but many did not want to go because they wanted to support the Afghans in what they thought would be a civil war. Now those Americans are scattered all around and are afraid to make the trip to the airport. With the ANA simply disappearing, they are at the mercy of the Taliban.

He also noted that people think the US can do anything, but some things are physically impossible. Getting 100K troops in country safely and with equipment would take months, this situation turned on its head in weeks. When we are outnumbered, the only option is massive firepower and that is politically untenable. Also, if we start shooting, the Taliban will start parading headless Americans on TV, as there is no way to protect them all without massive force. Note right now, the US and the Taliban have a mutual goal, we want to get Americans and some Afghans out and the Taliban want them out too.

Another interesting twist is that if we used force to push back the Taliban, we would be in violation of many US and international laws. No matter what you think about who is running a country you can't just go in and take it over. On the common-sense side, that has never worked and we're in this mess because of that very misguided logic. There is also the question of where 80K Afghanis are going and how will that destabilize those countries?

So we are basically depending on the Taliban to allow us to leave. To this point, they have shown amazing restraint. The Taliban is not a fully hierarchical military. They have a leadership structure but the further down the line you get the more unruly things get. It's only a matter of time until some low-level Taliban soldier opens fire on a crowd or worse yet Americans.

There is also the issue of us not predicting the collapse of the ANA. The plan was to evacuate in an Afghan-held Kabul. This turned on its head in 11 days when the ANA simply walked away. So we suspected that a good 100K of the supposed Afghan army were strawmen whose paychecks were going to corrupt leaders in the government. But, we did think a small force would defend the Kabul area of the country.

My feelings are Americans out first. As for our letting them down, we gave Afghanistan a golden opportunity and they squandered it. At some point, you have to cut your losses. In Japan, Germany, and Italy there were peaceful, constructive governments. There is nothing in Afghanistan for us to support.

One last thing is where is Kamala (VP))? This sort of proves to get out of Afghanistan was always known by the Administration to be an extremely politically risky move. She is being kept off-camera so that it will be harder to hold it against her in a presidential run.

 

[TallTom]

The Taliban will not change their ideology....the people of Afghanistan have seen life depicted by the west and liked it.....however, they will not fight for that life as seen by how quickly and easily the ANA gave up...if a military trained by the west gave up so easily, we can't expect the average citizen to fight for this type of lifestyle...

If you won't fight for it, you don't deserve it and will get whatever is given to you...

I was talking to one of my former colleagues and he sees a media blackout coming soon along with electrical power shut downs along with internet and cell phone coverage coming to a halt...

Keep them in the dark and keep prying eyes out of their business....life is about to get very difficult for the people of Afghanistan...

And yet with a consistent presence of what 2500 troops, everything has been maintained for years. We've been in Korea in this fashion for 50 years now.

We are being made to look totally inept by people in pickup trucks and motorcycles now.

 

[Bumblebee]

And yet with a consistent presence of what 2500 troops, everything has been maintained for years. We've been in Korea in this fashion for 50 years now.

We are being made to look totally inept by people in pickup trucks and motorcycles now.

Totally different scenario between Korea and Afghanistan....

I figure once NATO gave it's notice of leaving Afghanistan, the Taliban saw this as their opportunity to commence their planned advance....maybe they had quite a bit of buy in from the local ANA commanders as they didn't seem to meet with much resistance and the only real resistance was from the Afghan Spec Ops teams who were left hanging out to dry and subsequently murdered...

The Soviet Union were sent packing by an army on horseback and the coalition has been fighting and losing to these same people in pickup trucks, white Toyota Corollas and crappy little motorcycles...

These same people were able to give fits to many well trained and experienced coalition commanders including Spec Ops who were often at the mercy of these same people....if they were able to out maneuver and out guess the best the west has to offer, what chance to conventional forces have?

I believe with the approach of 9-11, this was the Taliban's way of giving the bird to the west...

 

[michael parris heuberger]

Hi. Well this was not Biden's fault now was it. After all it was Trump's plan. Biden should be considered a hero by the now free Afghan people and all of us in the good old USA.