EV vehicles

[Bumblebee]

BB what generates the electricity in those chargers? What are they made of? Where does the rubber in the hoses and cables come from?

You can answer those questions as good as I can I'm sure.

 

[Bumblebee]

People beat on the drums that EV will be the saviour of our planet, what isn't mentioned is it takes petroleum to fabricate EV as well as Li not being a renewable resource in itself-and it's nasty to mine along with the other metals required.

Then we get into the recharging and power requirements-which has to be generated by something.

My RC vehicles are EV and I see the advantages however the LiPo batteries only last so long just like the LiPo batteries used by power tools.

 

[pcs]

im not trying to sell anyone on buying an EV but many of the issues people complain about also affect ICEs. big difference is that ICEs have well over a century of tinkering, military investments, shade tree mechanics, and university r&d looking for solutions. it makes sense we as a society have been able to find them. so just to play devils advocate.
bills: of course your electricity bill will go up, you are charging a battery everyday…but your gas bill will go down. last i checked my bill, electricity is waaaaay cheaper than fuel and doesn’t fluctuate with wars or when gas companies decide they want more money.
garages: you could bring up the fact of how many people and pets have died/poisoned in a garages bc a ICE was just running.
fires: it’s not just EVs that are hard to put out. as manufactures use more aluminum, magnesium, and lightweight alloys those material are very difficult to extinguish. the navy doesn’t even bother to extinguish planes and they dont have huge battery packs. just push them over the side and let the ocean put them out. when a hay truck catches fire, fire departments sometimes just let them burn for days bc that cant put them out. they claim it takes too much water.
power loss: ICE lose power as the engine wears out and they loose efficiency. gasoline also has a shelf life. leave a gallon of outside for a month then try running your ICE on it vs leaving a battery outside.
safety: if electrical power was so dangerous, why has most of the world switched to electricity for home use bs gas. we dont use kerosene lanterns anymore, we use light bulbs. how many houses dont use electricity anymore.

 

[Bumblebee]

im not trying to sell anyone on buying an EV but many of the issues people complain about also affect ICEs. big difference is that ICEs have well over a century of tinkering, military investments, shade tree mechanics, and university r&d looking for solutions. it makes sense we as a society have been able to find them. so just to play devils advocate.
bills: of course your electricity bill will go up, you are charging a battery everyday…but your gas bill will go down. last i checked my bill, electricity is waaaaay cheaper than fuel and doesn’t fluctuate with wars or when gas companies decide they want more money.
garages: you could bring up the fact of how many people and pets have died/poisoned in a garages bc a ICE was just running.
fires: it’s not just EVs that are hard to put out. as manufactures use more aluminum, magnesium, and lightweight alloys those material are very difficult to extinguish. the navy doesn’t even bother to extinguish planes and they dont have huge battery packs. just push them over the side and let the ocean put them out. when a hay truck catches fire, fire departments sometimes just let them burn for days bc that cant put them out. they claim it takes too much water.
power loss: ICE lose power as the engine wears out and they loose efficiency. gasoline also has a shelf life. leave a gallon of outside for a month then try running your ICE on it vs leaving a battery outside.
safety: if electrical power was so dangerous, why has most of the world switched to electricity for home use bs gas. we dont use kerosene lanterns anymore, we use light bulbs. how many houses dont use electricity anymore.

We'll see how this plays out......I can't continue to play the tennis game of back and forth on the EV thing.

I personally don't see EV being anywhere near as green or efficient as it is being portrayed.

 

[Blanca BusaLess]

You can answer those questions as good as I can I'm sure.

They were rhetorical in nature. It takes petroleum products to produce electricity, manufacture the chargers and make the hoses and cables. No different than wind driven turbines that are filled with petroleum based lubricating oil and grease.
It’s all a left wing get rich quick fantasy. Give it ten years and another completely different more viable technology will have been discovered.

 

[Blanca BusaLess]

im not trying to sell anyone on buying an EV but many of the issues people complain about also affect ICEs. big difference is that ICEs have well over a century of tinkering, military investments, shade tree mechanics, and university r&d looking for solutions. it makes sense we as a society have been able to find them. so just to play devils advocate.
bills: of course your electricity bill will go up, you are charging a battery everyday…but your gas bill will go down. last i checked my bill, electricity is waaaaay cheaper than fuel and doesn’t fluctuate with wars or when gas companies decide they want more money.
garages: you could bring up the fact of how many people and pets have died/poisoned in a garages bc a ICE was just running.
fires: it’s not just EVs that are hard to put out. as manufactures use more aluminum, magnesium, and lightweight alloys those material are very difficult to extinguish. the navy doesn’t even bother to extinguish planes and they dont have huge battery packs. just push them over the side and let the ocean put them out. when a hay truck catches fire, fire departments sometimes just let them burn for days bc that cant put them out. they claim it takes too much water.
power loss: ICE lose power as the engine wears out and they loose efficiency. gasoline also has a shelf life. leave a gallon of outside for a month then try running your ICE on it vs leaving a battery outside.
safety: if electrical power was so dangerous, why has most of the world switched to electricity for home use bs gas. we dont use kerosene lanterns anymore, we use light bulbs. how many houses dont use electricity anymore.

Gas does not go bad from sitting for a month. Not even six months. It takes more than a year for it to go bad. I know this because vehicles of all types sit around and fire right up. Not to mention an ounce or two of stabilizer will make it last years. Batteries lose their charge rapidly. Cars and boats will be dead in the month or so you mention if not used and charged by the motors alternator.
States like California have raised electric rates for everyone, even people who don’t own EVs.
ICEs will produce same HP twenty years later. An EV won’t as its batteries become less efficient and less powerful.
Most of Europe and a large portion of the northeastern USA still use oil to heat their homes in winter. Electricity is not as efficient nor is it as easy to use nor is there enough of it to go around.

 

[jellyrug]

So what is the solution?

Here are the options:

Keep doing what we are doing and spoil the planet for our successors and the animal kingdom?
Get World War III going and destroy around 75% of the human race so nature can repair the damage?
Be responsible and urgently stop polluting the atmosphere, with all tools and resources available?

Picture below, where we are today, was already know by 1912 and published. This is for those who ignore physics, science and mathematics.

And the link from Nasa, also explaining how we pretty much know with good accuracy what the planet was like 800,000 years ago. Could be hard to understand for anyone who is technically disadvantaged, but it is factual.

Graphic: The relentless rise of carbon dioxide - NASA Science

The relentless rise of carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere.

climate.nasa.gov

And some more from NASA

Effects - NASA Science

Takeaways Earth Will Continue to Warm and the Effects Will Be Profound Global climate change is not a future problem. Changes to Earth’s climate driven by increased human emissions of heat-trapping greenhouse gases are already having widespread effects on the environment: glaciers and ice sheets...

climate.nasa.gov

 

[hayabuser]

"They" won't be happy until they're flying their private jetliners over the heads of a population of pedestrians and bicyclists.

It's ok when "they" pollute.

 

[Blanca BusaLess]

So what is the solution?

Here are the options:

Keep doing what we are doing and spoil the planet for our successors and the animal kingdom?
Get World War III going and destroy around 75% of the human race so nature can repair the damage?
Be responsible and urgently stop polluting the atmosphere, with all tools and resources available?

Picture below, where we are today, was already know by 1912 and published. This is for those who ignore physics, science and mathematics.

View attachment 1658412

And the link from Nasa, also explaining how we pretty much know with good accuracy what the planet was like 800,000 years ago. Could be hard to understand for anyone who is technically disadvantaged, but it is factual.

Graphic: The relentless rise of carbon dioxide - NASA Science

The relentless rise of carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere.

climate.nasa.gov

And some more from NASA

Effects - NASA Science

Takeaways Earth Will Continue to Warm and the Effects Will Be Profound Global climate change is not a future problem. Changes to Earth’s climate driven by increased human emissions of heat-trapping greenhouse gases are already having widespread effects on the environment: glaciers and ice sheets...

climate.nasa.gov

I don’t know. I’m in Florida and according to Al Gore in 1996 I think it was I was supposed to be under water by 2020.
We are nowhere near the polluters that countries like India and China are. When they buy into the green new deal and become even on the level of what we are now get back to me.

 

[sixpack577]

So what is the solution?

Here are the options:

Keep doing what we are doing and spoil the planet for our successors and the animal kingdom?
Get World War III going and destroy around 75% of the human race so nature can repair the damage?
Be responsible and urgently stop polluting the atmosphere, with all tools and resources available?

Picture below, where we are today, was already know by 1912 and published. This is for those who ignore physics, science and mathematics.

View attachment 1658412

And the link from Nasa, also explaining how we pretty much know with good accuracy what the planet was like 800,000 years ago. Could be hard to understand for anyone who is technically disadvantaged, but it is factual.

Graphic: The relentless rise of carbon dioxide - NASA Science

The relentless rise of carbon dioxide levels in the atmosphere.

climate.nasa.gov

And some more from NASA

Effects - NASA Science

Takeaways Earth Will Continue to Warm and the Effects Will Be Profound Global climate change is not a future problem. Changes to Earth’s climate driven by increased human emissions of heat-trapping greenhouse gases are already having widespread effects on the environment: glaciers and ice sheets...

climate.nasa.gov

I'll go with B
I'm all for less traffic...

 

[pcs]

We'll see how this plays out......I can't continue to play the tennis game of back and forth on the EV thing.

I personally don't see EV being anywhere near as green or efficient as it is being portrayed.

no one is telling you to buy one

electricity cost pennies out west and it come from nuclear, solar, hydro, wind, and fossil fuels.
pump gas does start going bad quickly if vented to atmosphere. just because your car starts up doesn’t mean it’s good fuel. if you open up carbs with old pump gas you will see it start to varnish the inside of jets. pump gas will start turning yellow/orange with in month. with ethanol blends you can see phase separation when petroleum and alcohol begin to separate.
electric motors are much more efficient that ICE are, less moving parts, simpler design, and dont have to convert up/down motion into rotational movement.
ICE will lose power over timewith use especially if its used for 20yrs. if you tear open a high mileage engine its easy to see why.
if people would look past their political biases and stop blaming the “left”, al gore, or who ever their favorite news channel claims to be the problem then people can make educated choice if an EV is a better or not.
to me it’s funny that people who have never owned an EV know so much about the problems and how they dont work or who have never actually put together an ICE seem to think they are so much better.

 

[TallTom]

no one is telling you to buy one

electricity cost pennies out west and it come from nuclear, solar, hydro, wind, and fossil fuels.
pump gas does start going bad quickly if vented to atmosphere. just because your car starts up doesn’t mean it’s good fuel. if you open up carbs with old pump gas you will see it start to varnish the inside of jets. pump gas will start turning yellow/orange with in month. with ethanol blends you can see phase separation when petroleum and alcohol begin to separate.
electric motors are much more efficient that ICE are, less moving parts, simpler design, and dont have to convert up/down motion into rotational movement.
ICE will lose power over timewith use especially if its used for 20yrs. if you tear open a high mileage engine its easy to see why.
if people would look past their political biases and stop blaming the “left”, al gore, or who ever their favorite news channel claims to be the problem then people can make educated choice if an EV is a better or not.
to me it’s funny that people who have never owned an EV know so much about the problems and how they dont work or who have never actually put together an ICE seem to think they are so much better.

It's not quite so simple. I totally support the new technology of the actual motors. Totally agree with the assessment vs ICE.

But you are leaving out some of the major weakness that remain. Fueling the electric motors.

Lithium mining is brutal to the earth. As well as brutal to the exploited labor that does it.

We need better batteries. We are working on it!

Next we have to recycle the spent batteries. More burden on our resources.

That aside, range anxiety is a real thing. We simply don't have the infrastructure to charge the users. And in the case of say the TESLA OTR truck, all those batteries have to be recharged. That takes a good bit of electricity and time.

Next, we need a network of support facilities. Have you read of the cost of repairs on these? You can buy a decent used car for the cost of a battery replacement. People are dumping spent Tesla's now.

And they are overall expensive to buy. The average person is hard pressed to buy even an entry level one. Let alone maintain them properly. Tesla while a fantastic start, isn't much on quality and longevity. ICE are on the road longer because they are better in that space than an EV is.

And you may want to try and downplay the fire hazards they present. But it's a big deal. I recently saw a piece of how they have to store Tesla's like say from flooding. The area needed is like 5 times that of regular vehicles. Wide spacing, no stacking, etc. All because of the fire hazards they present.

EVs are our future. I actually think that Hydrogen power has a brighter future than EVs do. But we have so far to go to get there. And we still have to carry on with what we have in the meantime. I want a cleaner planet. A sustainable one. But I'd like electricity, food on my table, clothes on my back while we get there.

 

[jellyrug]

It's not quite so simple. I totally support the new technology of the actual motors. Totally agree with the assessment vs ICE.

But you are leaving out some of the major weakness that remain. Fueling the electric motors.

Lithium mining is brutal to the earth. As well as brutal to the exploited labor that does it.

We need better batteries. We are working on it!

Next we have to recycle the spent batteries. More burden on our resources.

That aside, range anxiety is a real thing. We simply don't have the infrastructure to charge the users. And in the case of say the TESLA OTR truck, all those batteries have to be recharged. That takes a good bit of electricity and time.

Next, we need a network of support facilities. Have you read of the cost of repairs on these? You can buy a decent used car for the cost of a battery replacement. People are dumping spent Tesla's now.

And they are overall expensive to buy. The average person is hard pressed to buy even an entry level one. Let alone maintain them properly. Tesla while a fantastic start, isn't much on quality and longevity. ICE are on the road longer because they are better in that space than an EV is.

And you may want to try and downplay the fire hazards they present. But it's a big deal. I recently saw a piece of how they have to store Tesla's like say from flooding. The area needed is like 5 times that of regular vehicles. Wide spacing, no stacking, etc. All because of the fire hazards they present.

EVs are our future. I actually think that Hydrogen power has a brighter future than EVs do. But we have so far to go to get there. And we still have to carry on with what we have in the meantime. I want a cleaner planet. A sustainable one. But I'd like electricity, food on my table, clothes on my back while we get there.

I don't have an EV, but generally it is accepted that you can get a 20 minute charge which will give you around 200 miles, with the new Teslas.

I don't live in a big city, in fact I am in a rural area and there are 30 charging areas with a number of units each, ranging from 1.2 miles from my house, up to 30 miles away for the last few. Kind of 1.2, 2.9, 3.8 and so it goes up to 30 miles.

I have not seen this personally, but I am told the Tesla computer measures range and directs the driver to the nearest charging station at some point.

So generally speaking, if you are OK to take a 20 minute break every 3 1/2 hours driving interstate, there are no issues with range.

The key is to develop the infrastructure to keep pace with user demand, as the number of EV's start increasing.

Tesla is about to announce a more affordable model 3 and the warranty is already 8 years or 150,000 miles. So battery replacement is pretty much covered.

I agree with you, the prices of EV's are a big negative.

Currently, Toyota Mirai is the only Hydrogen alternative and the Hydrogen is used to enable a fuel cell, which is different to a battery, but basically a similar chemical to electricity reaction. You still have an electrical powered vehicle, based on electrochemical energy between Hydrogen and Oxygen. You have separators between the anode, the cathode and the electrolyte, similar to a battery. The difference is you don't need a charging station, but rather a hydrogen fill station which is a whole lot more complex.

Elon Musk is not a supporter of Hydrogen, for what it is worth, he believes the same result as a battery is achieved, but with a whole lot more complications.

As with most of us, I will hate to see the end of the ICE, but I am realistic and I take note of the temperature changes from personal experience where I live, 15 years ago, to today. I also understand the Physics and the Science used to calculate how mother earth manages CO2 conversion to Oxygen. I know from empirical lab results, how to calculate with reasonable accuracy how much CO2 a typical 15 year old Pine tree consumes. There is no rocket science, for those who have either done the research or understands applied math.

Lithium mining is not as bad as fossil fuel extraction. There are a lot of negative press reviews, but they are over hyped. When Lithium is extracted from brine, the environmental issue remains static, it does not grow.

Albermarle, SQM and a whole bunch of major organizations are working on recycling.

Right now, the concern is that there is not enough Lithium to satisfy demand, but there is tremendous investment in capacity at the moment and by around 2025, that problem should be resolved.

I believe the 2035 ICE ban is very optimistic, but we shall see. All I know is in Pinehurst NC, every trip I take, I normally see more than a couple of Teslas.

When folks compare the cost of electricity and the gas, or coal or more efficient nuclear energy needed for EV's what they forget is an ICE has an efficiency of below 40%, the rest is heat out of the exhaust and the motor. Fossil fuel power plants run up to 60% efficiency, but with the difference today in the USA that the emissions are cleaned up with treatment technology. So even a coal fired power plant with a very low efficiency of around 35%, uses emission capture. There is also technology available to capture CO2 out of the atmosphere and my guess is that at some point industrial energy users will be legislated to use this technology towards balancing their pollution output. There is also a new interest in safer nuclear technology. So in short, it is possible to produce the electrical requirements of EV's with no pollution, although that may be far in the future.

 

[TallTom]

I don't have an EV, but generally it is accepted that you can get a 20 minute charge which will give you around 200 miles, with the new Teslas.

I don't live in a big city, in fact I am in a rural area and there are 30 charging areas with a number of units each, ranging from 1.2 miles from my house, up to 30 miles away for the last few. Kind of 1.2, 2.9, 3.8 and so it goes up to 30 miles.

I have not seen this personally, but I am told the Tesla computer measures range and directs the driver to the nearest charging station at some point.

So generally speaking, if you are OK to take a 20 minute break every 3 1/2 hours driving interstate, there are no issues with range.

The key is to develop the infrastructure to keep pace with user demand, as the number of EV's start increasing.

Tesla is about to announce a more affordable model 3 and the warranty is already 8 years or 150,000 miles. So battery replacement is pretty much covered.

I agree with you, the prices of EV's are a big negative.

Currently, Toyota Mirai is the only Hydrogen alternative and the Hydrogen is used to enable a fuel cell, which is different to a battery, but basically a similar chemical to electricity reaction. You still have an electrical powered vehicle, based on electrochemical energy between Hydrogen and Oxygen. You have separators between the anode, the cathode and the electrolyte, similar to a battery. The difference is you don't need a charging station, but rather a hydrogen fill station which is a whole lot more complex.

Elon Musk is not a supporter of Hydrogen, for what it is worth, he believes the same result as a battery is achieved, but with a whole lot more complications.

As with most of us, I will hate to see the end of the ICE, but I am realistic and I take note of the temperature changes from personal experience where I live, 15 years ago, to today. I also understand the Physics and the Science used to calculate how mother earth manages CO2 conversion to Oxygen. I know from empirical lab results, how to calculate with reasonable accuracy how much CO2 a typical 15 year old Pine tree consumes. There is no rocket science, for those who have either done the research or understands applied math.

Lithium mining is not as bad as fossil fuel extraction. There are a lot of negative press reviews, but they are over hyped. When Lithium is extracted from brine, the environmental issue remains static, it does not grow.

Albermarle, SQM and a whole bunch of major organizations are working on recycling.

Right now, the concern is that there is not enough Lithium to satisfy demand, but there is tremendous investment in capacity at the moment and by around 2025, that problem should be resolved.

I believe the 2035 ICE ban is very optimistic, but we shall see. All I know is in Pinehurst NC, every trip I take, I normally see more than a couple of Teslas.

When folks compare the cost of electricity and the gas, or coal or more efficient nuclear energy needed for EV's what they forget is an ICE has an efficiency of below 40%, the rest is heat out of the exhaust and the motor. Fossil fuel power plants run up to 60% efficiency, but with the difference today in the USA that the emissions are cleaned up with treatment technology. So even a coal fired power plant with a very low efficiency of around 35%, uses emission capture. There is also technology available to capture CO2 out of the atmosphere and my guess is that at some point industrial energy users will be legislated to use this technology towards balancing their pollution output. There is also a new interest in safer nuclear technology. So in short, it is possible to produce the electrical requirements of EV's with no pollution, although that may be far in the future.

As far as I know every Tesla has this on board. It maps your destination by routing you through charging stations. So yes Elon knows that helps. A trip to Atlanta from here takes about 3 hours by ICE car. 5 by Tesla Model 3 standard version. If you have time, you can cross the country in them.

As to 20 minutes to 200 miles this is where things get interesting. You want fast, you have to buy fast. My sister got a Model X. It doesn't have 160 mile range. Even if it says it does. And it takes over 14 hours of 110V house juice to get it fully charged. If she wants a super charge away from her house, if there is not a line to use them, you have to pay for it. If she wants 220 charges at he house, it's thousands to get there.

I totally agree with the 40% efficiency to the virtually 100% efficiency. Hard to argue that.

I still feel Hydrogen represents our best solution to fossil fuels. Stupidly plentiful and we already have the transport and storage figured out.

I think Toyota leads the way in a practical solution.

2022 Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell Vehicle | Innovation is Power

 

[Blanca BusaLess]

When Biden gets his Chinese partners on board let us know. I do not understand the push to force Americans to care about the environment when so many other countries don’t give two poops? Get the major polluters to stop and then we can talk about America.

 

[jellyrug]

When Biden gets his Chinese partners on board let us know. I do not understand the push to force Americans to care about the environment when so many other countries don’t give two poops? Get the major polluters to stop and then we can talk about America.

You have made that point a few times now.

Don't get me going about China, I don't shop at Walmart, or Horror Freight (Harbor Freight) and try my best to avoid. It is unfortunately impossible though.

So what do we do, sit back, do nothing because of them and just watch?

China's Massive Pollution is Indicative of Broader Problems

www.hrw.org

 

[jellyrug]

As far as I know every Tesla has this on board. It maps your destination by routing you through charging stations. So yes Elon knows that helps. A trip to Atlanta from here takes about 3 hours by ICE car. 5 by Tesla Model 3 standard version. If you have time, you can cross the country in them.

As to 20 minutes to 200 miles this is where things get interesting. You want fast, you have to buy fast. My sister got a Model X. It doesn't have 160 mile range. Even if it says it does. And it takes over 14 hours of 110V house juice to get it fully charged. If she wants a super charge away from her house, if there is not a line to use them, you have to pay for it. If she wants 220 charges at he house, it's thousands to get there.

I totally agree with the 40% efficiency to the virtually 100% efficiency. Hard to argue that.

I still feel Hydrogen represents our best solution to fossil fuels. Stupidly plentiful and we already have the transport and storage figured out.

I think Toyota leads the way in a practical solution.

2022 Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell Vehicle | Innovation is Power

3 hours average interstate speed if you behave, with getting on and off and a few traffic lights before, gives you 180 miles. I can do that with my Busa and a Tesla riding all the way next to you non stop?

Actual Tesla Model 3 Range When New & Used

Here's a guide to Tesla Model 3 range.

www.recurrentauto.com

Fast forward to 11:00 280 miles. Fast forward to 20:00, 90 miles charge in 7 minutes. Full 100% charge from completely empty in 30 minutes. In short, a 20 minute stop after 3 hours driving and you are good without risk.

 

[jellyrug]

When Biden gets his Chinese partners on board let us know. I do not understand the push to force Americans to care about the environment when so many other countries don’t give two poops? Get the major polluters to stop and then we can talk about America.

Each Country's Share of CO2 Emissions

Which 20 countries emit the most carbon dioxide? You may be surprised.

www.ucsusa.org

 

[Bumblebee]

As far as I know every Tesla has this on board. It maps your destination by routing you through charging stations. So yes Elon knows that helps. A trip to Atlanta from here takes about 3 hours by ICE car. 5 by Tesla Model 3 standard version. If you have time, you can cross the country in them.

As to 20 minutes to 200 miles this is where things get interesting. You want fast, you have to buy fast. My sister got a Model X. It doesn't have 160 mile range. Even if it says it does. And it takes over 14 hours of 110V house juice to get it fully charged. If she wants a super charge away from her house, if there is not a line to use them, you have to pay for it. If she wants 220 charges at he house, it's thousands to get there.

I totally agree with the 40% efficiency to the virtually 100% efficiency. Hard to argue that.

I still feel Hydrogen represents our best solution to fossil fuels. Stupidly plentiful and we already have the transport and storage figured out.

I think Toyota leads the way in a practical solution.

2022 Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell Vehicle | Innovation is Power

I'm not sold on them...one day they MAY take over if hydrogen doesn't.......I suppose at that point we will have little choice.

I can see huge line ups at charging stations which could become a very convenient place for crime as people will be trapped until they have power...a minimum of 20 mins is a long time to wait if you have a car full of kids and cranky parents to contend with.

In the meantime, I plan to hang onto my gas powered things as long as I possibly can....

 

[TallTom]

I'm not sold on them...one day they MAY take over if hydrogen doesn't.......I suppose at that point we will have little choice.

I can see huge line ups at charging stations which could become a very convenient place for crime as people will be trapped until they have power...a minimum of 20 mins is a long time to wait if you have a car full of kids and cranky parents to contend with.

In the meantime, I plan to hang onto my gas powered things as long as I possibly can....

I'm sold that our next evolution in transportation will be away from fossil fuels. Big oil will put up a huge long fight obviously. But it's going to happen. Might not be in my lifetime, but soon.

Elon was brilliant in seeing he could get energy credits paid out by the govt. Like the man or not, he used that brilliantly. Tesla would be insolvent if it weren't for that revenue component.

EV just doesn't have enough political clout yet. Big Oil is heavily entrenched. Leaving Elon to go it alone. And he has done amazingly well.