EV vehicles

[Red05]

Gassing up an ICE vehicle is abuse??? What? Did you read that after you wrote it? How do you abuse an ICE vehicle by fueling it? I was equating to how one would abuse an EV....."by not charging it correctly" is what I guess I should have said....by this-either


I don't think ICE is going to go away any time soon....

Settle down Bee. I was merely comparing not charging an EV to not gassing up a ICE. Letting an ICE sit is not good either. I’m neither pro ICE or EV. I just have fun playing devils abdicate. You’re right. There’s so many gas vehicles out there now that in our lifetimes we probably won’t see much decline at all.

 

[WuzzaCBXRider]

The electricity went off last evening around 6:30. It just came back on. This is the second time in three days that the power went off. First time was three hours. The grid is the problem at least where I live and it was only 100 degrees when it failed. How many EVs were charging when it went off?

 

[jellyrug]

Do you have any ICE vehicles and if so, are you not a hypocrite?

We will see what the future holds....it may or may not be what you think...one never knows, Toyota is pretty serious about their hydrogen powerplant development as well....

YOU may be safe at a charging station but what about a vulnerable person?

I charge my battery powered devices when they are plugged into expensive surge protectors only....never directly into a wall plug.

The earth's climate is cyclic, and nobody will or can tell me any different...not the "egg heads" who walk around with pen protectors in their pockets and know nothing but numbers. Met these people, talked to them, rescued a couple and think little of them.

the term "climate change" is a great way for those in charge to stay in charge by activating the alarmists and keeping the cash rolling for studies.

The heat isn't overloading the power grid....all the load on them is....a lot of that load is air conditioning...now we will add the charging of EV to this mix.....are we ready? Nope, we are not....

I don't have any EV's, may happen in the future, it may not. I'm an old guy, past the stage of competing with the Jones's. It' is a tough call for me, as I grew up with a career in the automotive industry with gas and diesel engines covering that spectrum from A to Z. As Mercedes loses their value pretty fast here in the US, due to unreasonable maintenance pricing, being a fact of most luxury vehicles here, I can purchase a used one which was top of range 10 years ago and restore it to as good as new without much cost and maintain it myself. The finished project would probably cost me less than 1/2 of a entry level EV.

However Bee, unlike you I have an open mind with no Bias. For example, I understand how the electrical grid works, and I know how to manage demand. Most EV's charge at night when we sleep, during periods of low demand and many electrical utilities currently manage demand with a simple device at each residential user, preventing the power supply demand to go into red. In fact, here in the good old USA, almost all utility companies do not charge for demand, they only charge usage. We are pretty spoilt over here. Most other first world countries have two charges, one for usage and one for demand. The latter for instance would force big industry to schedule their loads, not to start all their machinery with the flip of one switch, but rather staged, otherwise they end up with a massive energy bill. We have such an abundance of power here that in short, we can get the grid sorted out rapidly over here, just with a bit of demand management.

In short, I believe the climate threat is real, I believe the world is overpopulated and anyone who denies pollution is ignorant, short sighted and selfish towards the next generation. There is a simple little experiment in grade school, which physically demonstrates the ability of air to maintain heat in correlation to CO2 content. Teaching that to the kids, was probably before your time?

I believe it won't be long before EV prices are competitive with ICE, yet a lot cheaper than ICE over the long run. Most cars have a life around 150k in this throw away society, so battery replacement is not an issue. Lithium prices are a little more than 1/3rd of what they were six months ago and those costs are already coming through on new models.

In terms of the planning phase, years into the future if we can shed our dependance of fossil fuels, EV would be part of the equation. Successful people don't sit around complaining and doing nothing, they act now, with utmost urgency.

Finally, you started this thread, you have made up your mind, and as another poster mentioned, you will shake every possible branch of the tree, to find anti EV stuff. There is really no point in trying to debate this with you. For me it is time to move on.

How about discussing the UFO congress hearing yesterday? Do you think everything we see is just the product of two hydrogen atoms with trillions of years of evolutionary development, or do you think there is something unexplainable out there keeping an eye on mother nature, which will stop us from defying it at some point?

Finally, I also know that there is no point in discussing all this with you t, as you have made up your mind, you are not flexible and as another poster has mentioned, you will go beyond reasonable to shake the branches of the tree so anti EV leaves fall to the ground, in an effort to prove your point.

 

[TallTom]

IEA says coal use hit an all-time high last year — and global demand will persist near record levels

Coal consumption this year on course to remain near 2022's record levels.

www.cnbc.com

"despite a weaker global economy, mainly driven by being more readily available and relatively cheaper than gas in many parts of the world."

"However, demand from the two largest consumers, China and India, grew by over 5% during the first half, more than offsetting declines elsewhere," it added."

China is building 6 times more coal fired power plants than any and all other countries.

China and India will buy the majority of the coal they use from us. It is a directly plugged in factor to our GDP performance.

 

[Bumblebee]

Finally, you started this thread, you have made up your mind, and as another poster mentioned, you will shake every possible branch of the tree, to find anti EV stuff. There is really no point in trying to debate this with you. For me it is time to move on.


Finally, I also know that there is no point in discussing all this with you t, as you have made up your mind, you are not flexible and as another poster has mentioned, you will go beyond reasonable to shake the branches of the tree so anti EV leaves fall to the ground, in an effort to prove your point.

You said this twice and each time started the sentence with "finally" Maybe I need to take my chainsaw and cut the tree down

It's obvious this isn't your final post on this subject....

....and.....I'm not anti-EV, I'm a realist and know enough that the public isn't ready for it.....and there's no reason why it isn't, EV is not a new concept so there was lots of time to prepare yet it wasn't done...now there seems to be some sort of panic to rush it out to the world.

It's like buying a horse yet have no stable or way or feeding it....

 

[TallTom]

For myself this thread took a bad turn when it was implied that the only people that understand and support EVs are more highly educated and posses some higher level of problem solving skills nobody but them were capable of understanding.

It started getting personal when there was a post directed at me that went something like "You can't even type chyt you find on the internet right. I never got it off the internet. But to have credibility I had to prove it existed. Then they question the validity of its truth when I link it. Alternate facts are no less factual. They just get in the way of other facts.

I have no idea anyone on this board their education, background, experience and application of logic they are accustomed to. Until they share in bits and pieces. What I have learned is we own a motorcycle that similarly stimulates us enough to own in common with varied backgrounds and educations that are astonishing.

Also my life experience has taught me, and I have had 1800 people directly report under me at various points in my career. The most obtuse ones were the ones that think their masters degree or their engineering disciplines made them above learning more. Making mistakes. Recognizing their weaknesses. I just learned how to manage them accordingly.

Some of the overall smartest people on the planet are farmers. They are well rounded in skills, great problem solvers, resourceful, humble, and above have a culture of common sense. And few have advanced degrees But I'd trust their intellect hands down over some chump that points to his or her degree and doesn't have a clue how to face a problem. And won't do a task because they feel it's beneath their education to do so. There was a time when the economy sucked, that I had the most well educated mail handlers on the planet. They were free to seek betterment elsewhere. I could certainly find cheaper solutions. They had no idea the strings I had to pull just to keep them in a job. Their school didn't teach that. But they were really good at biotching about how overqualified they were for the mail handler job. They after all had a master's degree in sports management . We were building HF secure communication scramblers for Air Force 1. And. I was fresh out of basketball playoff discussions.

But my farmer Marion could make any special tool, jig, or helper hardware we needed. And he could cut apart and weld stuff that saved us butttloads of capex money and prototype build cost Hed frickin build it in his home shop and bring it to work. And I used that savings to employ entitled tit suckers to move mail around.

Every obtuse highly educated person can make numbers look anyway they want. It's a discipline they learn as part of an education. Get 4 engineers in a room, give them all the same problem, and you get 4 different answers on how to solve it. And they will argue to their death why they are right.

I am not highly educated. I got a degree in business because my employer couldn't justify promoting me without one. And they picked up the tab for it. I got my associates from Cambridge University in England, while I worked full-time during the day I got my Bachelor's stateside from Manchester University in Indiana. All that hard work was nothing more than a statistic they needed to promote me. I wasn't smarter. But I had paperwork now. I was just as capable at my professional task as I always was. But it wasn't measured as much until you toil through a degree program. That the majority of it was totally unrelated to my job positions. I made program manager at 27. I could have done the job at 22. They just couldn't allow it

At the age of 46 I got a scholastic scholarship to med school to be an O&P Practitioner. I was the oldest person in my class. Older than most of my professors. And far from the brightest. What I learned quickly was I had to learn how to learn stuff I never had to learn before. In very short periods of time. I had no use for Anatomy memorization and recall ever in my life before. Now my GPA depended in it.. And it didn't come naturally. Kinetic engineering math....yeah eff that I was done.

Those kids still call me for advice. Nothing in Med school taught them what to with 350K a year incomes.

EVs are needed. Hydrogen is needed. ICE can be made much more efficient. Look at Koenigsegg. His. ICE and hybrid work is astonishing. But all of them are still economically impractical as a whole. A Koenigsegg cost millions. That won't fix big picture chyt.

So unfortunately like it or not we don't have the luxury of the $$ it will take to make this transition. Coal is progress in India, compared to burning cow dung to heat your house.

Currently China is in the process of buying Africa. They are there building infrastructure and developing that nation. All floated on debt. Chna will probably acquire all of their natural resources to pay them back. It will be 30 or so years. China has learned to think strategically. America lost that skill. Or perhaps they stopped teaching it as higher education curriculum. Squabbling about 2% of our energy consumption assures we will lose our footing in the world.

 

[Bumblebee]

It appears this topic is sensitive for a few of us......

Perhaps it is fear....fear of an era ending and a new one starting........

I'll admit I'm not done with my ICE vehicles and the thought of having to drive a vanilla EV threatens me due to regardless of their advancements, they have no soul and stir up no excitement.....much like the tuner cars of today...

I like the rumble, vibration and ill manners of ICE vehicles...my growly Hayabusa with no riding aids stirs a sense of reckless abandon where I know if I do something stupid, it will bite me and bite me hard.....it's invigorating....

I spent a lifetime of living on the edge and sometimes crossing over the edge, it's hard to shut that off....

 

[TallTom]

It appears this topic is sensitive for a few of us......

Perhaps it is fear....fear of an era ending and a new one starting........

I'll admit I'm not done with my ICE vehicles and the thought of having to drive a vanilla EV threatens me due to regardless of their advancements, they have no soul and stir up no excitement.....much like the tuner cars of today...

I like the rumble, vibration and ill manners of ICE vehicles...my growly Hayabusa with no riding aids stirs a sense of reckless abandon where I know if I do something stupid, it will bite me and bite me hard.....it's invigorating....

I spent a lifetime of living on the edge and sometimes crossing over the edge, it's hard to shut that off....

Well if it helps you can order a Tesla that plays recorded ICE engine noises.

I must admit Elon does have his humorous side.

 

[Bumblebee]

Well if it helps you can order a Tesla that plays recorded ICE engine noises.

I must admit Elon does have his humorous side.

Just like Ford and their vehicles that pipe rowdy V-8 sounds into the cabin....



Even though my Ram is a modern vehicle, I can still lift the hood and tinker to some degree....can't do that with EV....

Many of us here went from starting a car with a screwdriver in the carb to fuel injected-less fun to play with electronically controlled vehicles and now EV where they are untouchable....and not for gear heads....

 

[WuzzaCBXRider]

Let’s see, should we all list our educational highlights and how we think obtuse highly educated people are, compared to farmers? Come on, who else used savings and pulled strings to keep a couple thousand over educated but lesser individuals employed and beneath them? Anyone else work full time while going to school? How about name dropping? Air Force-1? Cambridge? Pentagon anyone? I know, uh, I got pretty close to Elvis when I was in school and he was making a movie nearby. I saw the most beautiful woman in the world at SFO one evening. Tony Bennett had his arm around her. My son and I shared a nice Merlot with Ray Manzarek before his performance one evening. My daughter and I had dinner with Van’s daughter, Shana Morrison one night. Anyone else wanna brag, pontificate or pat your own back? Or would that be obtuse?

WTF is this thread supposed to be about anyway?

 

[Bumblebee]

Let’s see, should we all list our educational highlights and how we think obtuse highly educated people are, compared to farmers? Come on, who else used savings and pulled strings to keep a couple thousand over educated but lesser individuals employed and beneath them? Anyone else work full time while going to school? How about name dropping? Air Force-1? Cambridge? Pentagon anyone? I know, uh, I got pretty close to Elvis when I was in school and he was making a movie nearby. I saw the most beautiful woman in the world at SFO one evening. Tony Bennett had his arm around her. My son and I shared a nice Merlot with Ray Manzarek before his performance one evening. My daughter and I had dinner with Van’s daughter, Shana Morrison one night. Anyone else wanna brag, pontificate or pat your own back? Or would that be obtuse?

WTF is this thread supposed to be about anyway?

I honestly don't know anymore...

It's about fear....fear of an era ending.....I suppose.....

 

[jellyrug]

For myself this thread took a bad turn when it was implied that the only people that understand and support EVs are more highly educated and posses some higher level of problem solving skills nobody but them were capable of understanding.

It started getting personal when there was a post directed at me that went something like "You can't even type chyt you find on the internet right. I never got it off the internet. But to have credibility I had to prove it existed. Then they question the validity of its truth when I link it. Alternate facts are no less factual. They just get in the way of other facts.

I have no idea anyone on this board their education, background, experience and application of logic they are accustomed to. Until they share in bits and pieces. What I have learned is we own a motorcycle that similarly stimulates us enough to own in common with varied backgrounds and educations that are astonishing.

Also my life experience has taught me, and I have had 1800 people directly report under me at various points in my career. The most obtuse ones were the ones that think their masters degree or their engineering disciplines made them above learning more. Making mistakes. Recognizing their weaknesses. I just learned how to manage them accordingly.

Some of the overall smartest people on the planet are farmers. They are well rounded in skills, great problem solvers, resourceful, humble, and above have a culture of common sense. And few have advanced degrees But I'd trust their intellect hands down over some chump that points to his or her degree and doesn't have a clue how to face a problem. And won't do a task because they feel it's beneath their education to do so. There was a time when the economy sucked, that I had the most well educated mail handlers on the planet. They were free to seek betterment elsewhere. I could certainly find cheaper solutions. They had no idea the strings I had to pull just to keep them in a job. Their school didn't teach that. But they were really good at biotching about how overqualified they were for the mail handler job. They after all had a master's degree in sports management . We were building HF secure communication scramblers for Air Force 1. And. I was fresh out of basketball playoff discussions.

But my farmer Marion could make any special tool, jig, or helper hardware we needed. And he could cut apart and weld stuff that saved us butttloads of capex money and prototype build cost Hed frickin build it in his home shop and bring it to work. And I used that savings to employ entitled tit suckers to move mail around.

Every obtuse highly educated person can make numbers look anyway they want. It's a discipline they learn as part of an education. Get 4 engineers in a room, give them all the same problem, and you get 4 different answers on how to solve it. And they will argue to their death why they are right.

I am not highly educated. I got a degree in business because my employer couldn't justify promoting me without one. And they picked up the tab for it. I got my associates from Cambridge University in England, while I worked full-time during the day I got my Bachelor's stateside from Manchester University in Indiana. All that hard work was nothing more than a statistic they needed to promote me. I wasn't smarter. But I had paperwork now. I was just as capable at my professional task as I always was. But it wasn't measured as much until you toil through a degree program. That the majority of it was totally unrelated to my job positions. I made program manager at 27. I could have done the job at 22. They just couldn't allow it

At the age of 46 I got a scholastic scholarship to med school to be an O&P Practitioner. I was the oldest person in my class. Older than most of my professors. And far from the brightest. What I learned quickly was I had to learn how to learn stuff I never had to learn before. In very short periods of time. I had no use for Anatomy memorization and recall ever in my life before. Now my GPA depended in it.. And it didn't come naturally. Kinetic engineering math....yeah eff that I was done.

Those kids still call me for advice. Nothing in Med school taught them what to with 350K a year incomes.

EVs are needed. Hydrogen is needed. ICE can be made much more efficient. Look at Koenigsegg. His. ICE and hybrid work is astonishing. But all of them are still economically impractical as a whole. A Koenigsegg cost millions. That won't fix big picture chyt.

So unfortunately like it or not we don't have the luxury of the $$ it will take to make this transition. Coal is progress in India, compared to burning cow dung to heat your house.

Currently China is in the process of buying Africa. They are there building infrastructure and developing that nation. All floated on debt. Chna will probably acquire all of their natural resources to pay them back. It will be 30 or so years. China has learned to think strategically. America lost that skill. Or perhaps they stopped teaching it as higher education curriculum. Squabbling about 2% of our energy consumption assures we will lose our footing in the world.

Tom, sorry I offended you. If I recall, you typed a number wrong. Then later I did the same thing, except I admitted my mistake after you pointed it out. Sometimes folks don’t get my dry humor.

For me, the only mistake in life is when a person does not admit his mistake and does learn from it.

On the eduction side, I share your experience with educated folks who missed the practical part and then try and boss people around. I started working for my dad in his steel fabrication factory when I was nine years old, with my hands. With respect, the US eduction system is not vocationally orientated. I went to school in a different country, only after completing a formal apprenticeship. I can honestly say, that I have used at least 70% of what I was taught in school, at some point later in my career.

The biggest asset in life is common sense. You can’t learn that in school. It is a rare commodity in this day and age, unfortunately.

 

[jellyrug]

Let’s see, should we all list our educational highlights and how we think obtuse highly educated people are, compared to farmers? Come on, who else used savings and pulled strings to keep a couple thousand over educated but lesser individuals employed and beneath them? Anyone else work full time while going to school? How about name dropping? Air Force-1? Cambridge? Pentagon anyone? I know, uh, I got pretty close to Elvis when I was in school and he was making a movie nearby. I saw the most beautiful woman in the world at SFO one evening. Tony Bennett had his arm around her. My son and I shared a nice Merlot with Ray Manzarek before his performance one evening. My daughter and I had dinner with Van’s daughter, Shana Morrison one night. Anyone else wanna brag, pontificate or pat your own back? Or would that be obtuse?

WTF is this thread supposed to be about anyway?

I wanted to kiss Sandra Bullock, but never got that far.

It’s all good, if you want to post your resume, have at it, at least we know a bit more about you then.

 

[Red05]

....and.....I'm not anti-EV, I'm a realist and know enough that the public isn't ready for it.....and there's no reason why it isn't, EV is not a new concept so there was lots of time to prepare yet it wasn't done...now there seems to be some sort of panic to rush it out to the world.

It's like buying a horse yet have no stable or way or feeding it....

Bee I'm confused. You're responding to Jellyrug who is in North Carolina, and I assure you the EV infrastructure is well in place in the United States. I believe you that your "neck of the woods" isn't ready, but it's hard to believe that Canada as a whole isn't preparing as well.

I honestly don't know anymore...

It's about fear....fear of an era ending.....I suppose.....

There you hit it on the head. Quite Bee like.

 

[jellyrug]

Bee I'm confused. You're responding to Jellyrug who is in North Carolina, and I assure you the EV infrastructure is well in place in the United States. I believe you that your "neck of the woods" isn't ready, but it's hard to believe that Canada as a whole isn't preparing as well.

There you hit it on the head. Quite Bee like.

Believe it or not, but Canada actually manages their power grid better than the US.

The largest US power grid is sounding an alarm

High temperatures are straining PJM's energy reserves as home cooling systems are pushed to the limit

qz.com

But here again, you have a guy talking about the grid, who has little to no understanding of power generation, distribution and demand management. The way Canada bills for electricity, poses a problem to companies who installs fast power chargers in public. It’s a procedural issue, rather than physical.

Canada also is one of the cleanest greenest domestic energy suppliers in the world.

 

[Bumblebee]

Believe it or not, but Canada actually manages their power grid better than the US.

The largest US power grid is sounding an alarm

High temperatures are straining PJM's energy reserves as home cooling systems are pushed to the limit

qz.com

But here again, you have a guy talking about the grid, who has little to no understanding of power generation, distribution and demand management. The way Canada bills for electricity, poses a problem to companies who installs fast power chargers in public. It’s a procedural issue, rather than physical.

Canada also is one of the cleanest greenest domestic energy suppliers in the world.

Our power distribution is old and unreliable....it takes very little to knock out power and we have outages all the time..

The biggest issue here is we have a reactive system.....there is a trend to not think ahead and prepare but rather react when there is an issue...

This is not isolated to power distribution here in Canada but rather many other facets as well..

Our nuclear generation stations are old and require upgrades yet our government drags their feet, they have recently signed off on doing nuclear energy expansion but it will take quite a bit of time to complete....and there is quite a bit of kick back from local indigenous folk who oppose this expansion....and they carry a lot of weight.

We have many northern communities which operate on diesel generators.....these are remote located communities which it would be impossible to tie into any sort of central distribution system....these communities would never be able to convert to EV as their existing power grid would never support the load.

 

[Bumblebee]

Bee I'm confused. You're responding to Jellyrug who is in North Carolina, and I assure you the EV infrastructure is well in place in the United States. I believe you that your "neck of the woods" isn't ready, but it's hard to believe that Canada as a whole isn't preparing as well.

I know who I was responding to and I was placing my response in first person as to where I live....this is where I'm most concerned about...

Canada is not prepared for mass EV distribution and won't be for years to come....

 

[Bumblebee]

Is this a reality?

Tesla has been exaggerating its vehicles' potential driving distance for years by rigging their range-estimating software, report says​

A REUTERS SPECIAL REPORT​

Tesla created secret team to suppress thousands of driving range complaints​

MSN

www.msn.com

 

[jellyrug]

Our power distribution is old and unreliable....it takes very little to knock out power and we have outages all the time..

The biggest issue here is we have a reactive system.....there is a trend to not think ahead and prepare but rather react when there is an issue...

This is not isolated to power distribution here in Canada but rather many other facets as well..

Our nuclear generation stations are old and require upgrades yet our government drags their feet, they have recently signed off on doing nuclear energy expansion but it will take quite a bit of time to complete....and there is quite a bit of kick back from local indigenous folk who oppose this expansion....and they carry a lot of weight.

We have many northern communities which operate on diesel generators.....these are remote located communities which it would be impossible to tie into any sort of central distribution system....these communities would never be able to convert to EV as their existing power grid would never support the load.

I don’t do well with conversations which cannot be supported by factual data and numbers.

I do even worse when folks fabricate BS stories to try and prove a point. ( The hot start thread)

I can do all of this for you, but it won’t be well received:

City you live in.
Who is your electricity provider.
City population
Size of your main breaker.
Breakdown of your electrical bill, most expensive month of the year.
How many km do you drive your cars per year
Water heater and clothes dryer specs
Size of your breaker for the heat pump.

My guess is that at this exact point in time, you don’t have those details, and you won’t really be interested to do so either.

Canada – a world energy giant now and tomorrow | en:former

Canada is a land of contrasts, producing huge volumes of oil alongside one of the world’s greenest power systems. Read more on en:former!

www.en-former.com

 

[Bumblebee]

I don’t do well with conversations which cannot be supported by factual data and numbers.

I do even worse when folks fabricate BS stories to try and prove a point. ( The hot start thread)

I can do all of this for you, but it won’t be well received:

City you live in.
Who is your electricity provider.
City population
Size of your main breaker.
Breakdown of your electrical bill, most expensive month of the year.
How many km do you drive your cars per year
Water heater and clothes dryer specs
Size of your breaker for the heat pump.

My guess is that at this exact point in time, you don’t have those details, and you won’t really be interested to do so either.

Canada – a world energy giant now and tomorrow | en:former

Canada is a land of contrasts, producing huge volumes of oil alongside one of the world’s greenest power systems. Read more on en:former!

www.en-former.com

I've posted countless supporting attachments that you either didn't read, look at or agree with....not my problem...

I've also reported on a hot start issue that I personally had and have read about here on this forum....no BS there cowboy....

You don't live in this country so you aren't privy to what someone who lives here sees and hears.....I don't need a step by step breakdown of that data to know our power grid is old and faulty...is it up to the task of adding all these EV power stations both commercial and residential, time will tell....it wasn't that long ago that we had rolling brown outs here in order to control power usage....

What this shining link you posted omits is that over half the wind turbines are in a state of disrepair and not working due to lack of maintenance. Our hydro electric dams are aging and need of upgrades and our nuclear program that once was the top tier is now old and needing upgrades.

This country like many others is short of skilled labor and people to do all these maintenance tasks....

I'm not some sort of keyboard jockey, regardless of your opinion.....

You can find all these just as easily....that's why I didn't post them...I can fill an entire thread if you wish....