EV vehicles

Meta title: Mr.

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Bumblebee said:
How many ICE vehicles are modified or older models? These factors contribute to fires...

Millions upon millions of ICE vehicles are everywhere yet we don't see fires very often unless in a collision then all bets are off same as EV...

How many spontaneous combustion fires do we see with EV, quite a few...
Click to expand...
Again, just saying.

Cheers.

core.verisk.com

Electric Vehicles in Focus, Part III: Electric Vehicle Fire Risk

Electric vehicles appear to be less of a fire risk than conventional vehicles, but they may still introduce novel hazards to people and property.
core.verisk.com core.verisk.com
 
jellyrug said:
Again, just saying.

Cheers.

core.verisk.com

Electric Vehicles in Focus, Part III: Electric Vehicle Fire Risk

Electric vehicles appear to be less of a fire risk than conventional vehicles, but they may still introduce novel hazards to people and property.
core.verisk.com core.verisk.com
Click to expand...
Makes me wonder if these ICE fires are as a result of collisions....I rarely ever hear of an ICE having spontaneous combustion like I do EV.

Nor do I ever hear of an ICE vehicle catching fire a week after a collision and then next to impossible to extinguish which I think is the real issue with EV....once it gets burning, the thermal-chemical combustion is very hot and only able to be extinguished with chemical means or water immersion.
 
Bumblebee said:
How many ICE vehicles are modified or older models? These factors contribute to fires...

Millions upon millions of ICE vehicles are everywhere yet we don't see fires very often unless in a collision then all bets are off same as EV...

How many spontaneous combustion fires do we see with EV, quite a few...
Click to expand...
Bee. You aren't allowed to use alternative mathematics in this argument.

Further you won't be allowed to use facts such as name 1 make of ICE that is being told to park outside of your garage due to fire hazard, or risk losing your insurance policy over.

Those stupid insurance companies and their stupid lack of education.
 
Bumblebee said:
Makes me wonder if these ICE fires are as a result of collisions....I rarely ever hear of an ICE having spontaneous combustion like I do EV.

Nor do I ever hear of an ICE vehicle catching fire a week after a collision and then next to impossible to extinguish which I think is the real issue with EV....once it gets burning, the thermal-chemical combustion is very hot and only able to be extinguished with chemical means or water immersion.
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LOL

Unlikely that I will buy an EV in what is left of my life, so I am not pushing EV's. Also not trying to convince you about anything regarding EV's

Just keeping track of technology, as I worked in the automotive industry for a chunk of my life.

The new batch of Teslas that arrived in Canada recently, made in China, all 6,200 of them, have the new generation of M3P Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries,made by CATL. If a cell is damaged or fails, the heat and resulting short circuit is compartmentalized to a small area, and the battery is deactivated. There is no longer a fire risk. There is a mileage range penalty though with M3P, but a bonus advantage with battery life. M3P is also a lot cheaper to manufacture.
 
TallTom said:
Bee. You aren't allowed to use alternative mathematics in this argument.

Further you won't be allowed to use facts such as name 1 make of ICE that is being told to park outside of your garage due to fire hazard, or risk losing your insurance policy over.

Those stupid insurance companies and their stupid lack of education.
Click to expand...
Perhaps I'm looking at this too simplistically.....

The way I see it, EV are no more green than ICE....

They both need to be manufactured and petroleum is used in that process
They both need to be powered with different yet environmentally unfriendly ways.....Li mining isn't pretty nor is the mining required for all the other ingredients needed in manufacturing batteries....oil and gas exploration, extraction and refining isn't pretty either.
Both use non-renewable resources to power them.

In many cases EV required to be charged with sources that are unfriendly to the environment...coal fired or natural gas generators for instance....even nuclear has waste and that waste will be around for thousands of years in storage facilities....

We have solar and wind, both need to be manufactured and both have environmental detriments.

So there is no real comparison as they are both not environmentally sound even though the owners of EV tend to look down their nose at the rest of us.
 
jellyrug said:
LOL

Unlikely that I will buy an EV in what is left of my life, so I am not pushing EV's. Also not trying to convince you about anything regarding EV's

Just keeping track of technology, as I worked in the automotive industry for a chunk of my life.

The new batch of Teslas that arrived in Canada recently, made in China, all 6,200 of them, have the new generation of M3P Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries,made by CATL. If a cell is damaged or fails, the heat and resulting short circuit is compartmentalized to a small area, and the battery is deactivated. There is no longer a fire risk. There is a mileage range penalty though with M3P, but a bonus advantage with battery life. M3P is also a lot cheaper to manufacture.
Click to expand...
The tech will eventually come but it is a long way off...

Recently our government has subsidized Stellantis and VW battery building plants to the sum of 6.5 billion each....financial experts have devised that it will take at least 25 yrs before the government is made whole again and that's barring any cost overruns of which we know there will be many....

In the end Canadian taxpayers who don't drive or own a car are subsidizing battery plants for those that will own EV.....

If we look at the economy right now, many people are in jeopardy of losing their homes and struggling to make ends meet, the purchase of an expensive EV (or ICE) vehicle is beyond the reach of many right now and the foreseeable future....
 
Bumblebee said:
The tech will eventually come but it is a long way off...

Recently our government has subsidized Stellantis and VW battery building plants to the sum of 6.5 billion each....financial experts have devised that it will take at least 25 yrs before the government is made whole again and that's barring any cost overruns of which we know there will be many....

In the end Canadian taxpayers who don't drive or own a car are subsidizing battery plants for those that will own EV.....

If we look at the economy right now, many people are in jeopardy of losing their homes and struggling to make ends meet, the purchase of an expensive EV (or ICE) vehicle is beyond the reach of many right now and the foreseeable future....
Click to expand...
The EV market is in a slump right now in the US, as well as China. Not in Europe though. Will be interesting to see what happens next year if we have a Republican in office. If it is a Democrat, EV's will get a new boost in sales. Republican, EV's may be in trouble for a few years. On the other hand, if the Republicans don't support EV's China will capture the entire world market for years to come. So who knows?

Tesla has a huge advantage above anyone else, due to its vertical integration. They are now even looking at lithium refining. The competition will bleed big time until they eventually catch up, if ever.

On the whole climate thing, humans do what they have to do. I don't think major progress will be made in our lifetimes, or until such time as humans are forced by nature to make drastic changes. If Iran gets their way and gets Nukes, the whole world landscape may change, as they don't care about anything living.

If Solid State batteries find their way into EV's (Seems like everyone is working on that) the whole dynamic will change. After that buying an ICE will be like buying a Harley Davidson. A cult favorite, years behind in technology.
 
jellyrug said:
The EV market is in a slump right now in the US, as well as China. Not in Europe though. Will be interesting to see what happens next year if we have a Republican in office. If it is a Democrat, EV's will get a new boost in sales. Republican, EV's may be in trouble for a few years. On the other hand, if the Republicans don't support EV's China will capture the entire world market for years to come. So who knows?

Tesla has a huge advantage above anyone else, due to its vertical integration. They are now even looking at lithium refining. The competition will bleed big time until they eventually catch up, if ever.

On the whole climate thing, humans do what they have to do. I don't think major progress will be made in our lifetimes, or until such time as humans are forced by nature to make drastic changes. If Iran gets their way and gets Nukes, the whole world landscape may change, as they don't care about anything living.

If Solid State batteries find their way into EV's (Seems like everyone is working on that) the whole dynamic will change. After that buying an ICE will be like buying a Harley Davidson. A cult favorite, years behind in technology.
Click to expand...
I don't think EV will be the main source of transportation in my lifetime....

ICE is deeply and firmly embedded and won't be easy to displace...perhaps as the young generation age they might be more geared towards EV more.

I read that solid state batteries are a long way off yet, there seems to be quite a few issues in their development.
 
Bumblebee said:
I don't think EV will be the main source of transportation in my lifetime....

ICE is deeply and firmly embedded and won't be easy to displace...perhaps as the young generation age they might be more geared towards EV more.

I read that solid state batteries are a long way off yet, there seems to be quite a few issues in their development.
Click to expand...
Don't disagree with any of that. Not sure where you are, but I am kinda past my best before date. Probably lucky if I get another 20 years.

I always see people watching when I remove my helmet, they expect a 20 year old on a crotch rocket and out comes the grey hair. :D
 
jellyrug said:
Don't disagree with any of that. Not sure where you are, but I am kinda past my best before date. Probably lucky if I get another 20 years.

I always see people watching when I remove my helmet, they expect a 20 year old on a crotch rocket and out comes the grey hair. :D
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Same here......and same reaction when I take off my helmet....

When I told one of my neighbors I had a bike he came over to see it and was really shocked to see the bike....he had me pegged as some sort of murdered out HD rider.
 
Bumblebee said:
Perhaps I'm looking at this too simplistically.....

The way I see it, EV are no more green than ICE....

They both need to be manufactured and petroleum is used in that process
They both need to be powered with different yet environmentally unfriendly ways.....Li mining isn't pretty nor is the mining required for all the other ingredients needed in manufacturing batteries....oil and gas exploration, extraction and refining isn't pretty either.
Both use non-renewable resources to power them.

In many cases EV required to be charged with sources that are unfriendly to the environment...coal fired or natural gas generators for instance....even nuclear has waste and that waste will be around for thousands of years in storage facilities....

We have solar and wind, both need to be manufactured and both have environmental detriments.

So there is no real comparison as they are both not environmentally sound even though the owners of EV tend to look down their nose at the rest of us.
Click to expand...
So actually they are greener over the life they are expected to have. In other words, once they are manufactured and on the road, you can amortize out their carbon footprint it took to manufacture. But like any other math it's only as right as those that know how to use it. It assumes everyone will buy a new one and eat the cost of ownership when it comes time for the battery change. Which many won't. So their green lifespan gets cut short and therefore aren't as green.

But in a perfect world, they are greener than ICE. Once they have shops than can work on them (that's a big if), that brings the cost of repairs down. So in theory they will be greener when that happens. Cost of insurance can decrease once the loss tables have had some time to grade them better.

Like we all know, theory and reality are often strangers to one another in practice.

When we cycle back to cheap gas prices, the EV market that is struggling now, won't be doing better then.

They will never make much difference at the rate of adoption they currently see.

Even Elon has worked out the reality of it. If everything tomorrow forced everyone to buy an EV for a new car, it would take 25 years to be EV'd.

A lot can change in 25 years.
 
TallTom said:
So actually they are greener over the life they are expected to have. In other words, once they are manufactured and on the road, you can amortize out their carbon footprint it took to manufacture. But like any other math it's only as right as those that know how to use it. It assumes everyone will buy a new one and eat the cost of ownership when it comes time for the battery change. Which many won't. So their green lifespan gets cut short and therefore aren't as green.

But in a perfect world, they are greener than ICE. Once they have shops than can work on them (that's a big if), that brings the cost of repairs down. So in theory they will be greener when that happens. Cost of insurance can decrease once the loss tables have had some time to grade them better.

Like we all know, theory and reality are often strangers to one another in practice.

When we cycle back to cheap gas prices, the EV market that is struggling now, won't be doing better then.

They will never make much difference at the rate of adoption they currently see.

Even Elon has worked out the reality of it. If everything tomorrow forced everyone to buy an EV for a new car, it would take 25 years to be EV'd.

A lot can change in 25 years.
Click to expand...
Green is all in the wording.......more EVs out there will increase the demand on electricity to a level never seen before....what will power this electrical grid will dictate how green the technology is....

Add to this, I for one don't think for one second the electricity providers won't monopolize on this and the electricity rates will soar...governments are greedy and won't let the opportunity to gouge EV owners in anyway they can....

A very robust recycling plan will have to be forged for the induction of EV to be viable....batteries and vehicles will need a solid recycle plan...

And this has to be globally launched and maintained for this to work.
 
Bumblebee said:
Green is all in the wording.......more EVs out there will increase the demand on electricity to a level never seen before....what will power this electrical grid will dictate how green the technology is....

Add to this, I for one don't think for one second the electricity providers won't monopolize on this and the electricity rates will soar...governments are greedy and won't let the opportunity to gouge EV owners in anyway they can....

A very robust recycling plan will have to be forged for the induction of EV to be viable....batteries and vehicles will need a solid recycle plan...

And this has to be globally launched and maintained for this to work.
Click to expand...
Electricity providers monopolizing is not part of the green argument. Unscrupulous electricity providers doesn't change the green equation.

What it may well do is cause less EVs to be purchased. But that wouldn't be because the EV is at fault.

I will remind ourselves, we have already learned to live with unscrupulous gasoline providers for decades now.
 
TallTom said:
Electricity providers monopolizing is not part of the green argument. Unscrupulous electricity providers doesn't change the green equation.

What it may well do is cause less EVs to be purchased. But that wouldn't be because the EV is at fault.

I will remind ourselves, we have already learned to live with unscrupulous gasoline providers for decades now.
Click to expand...
Once we go down the rabbit hole of being dependent on electricity providers we will see..

Areas in California are already experiencing what happens when the demand outweighs production..

Where I'm going in regard to the green equation is if the right electricity generation isn't engaged, other means will be brought on line to provide the power requirements...means such as fossil fuel generation....
 
Bumblebee said:
Once we go down the rabbit hole of being dependent on electricity providers we will see..

Areas in California are already experiencing what happens when the demand outweighs production..

Where I'm going in regard to the green equation is if the right electricity generation isn't engaged, other means will be brought on line to provide the power requirements...means such as fossil fuel generation....
Click to expand...
I concur with your view. As a practical solution, EVs aren't going to get us there. I also concur we never have a way out the of using vast vast quantities of oil. I do however prescribe to if we can burn less it's not a bad goal. I just stay in the camp that we do it more efficiently than we are now.

We could generate all the worlds electricity using proven nuclear generation. But that hasn't been accepted. And despite all our best use of math, politics tends to ignore mathematics. That is also a big component of change. Or lack of it.
 
TallTom said:
Great now the population exodus will accelerate out of NJ.

*sigh*

To probably here.
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I wonder what the tipping point towards an open revolt will be?

It seems that governments are not in touch with their populace....not even a little....

EVs are building up on lots around here so much that dealers are parking them in the back to make room for vehicles that are selling.....

They don't know what to do with them as the companies don't want them back....
 
Bumblebee said:
I wonder what the tipping point towards an open revolt will be?

It seems that governments are not in touch with their populace....not even a little....

EVs are building up on lots around here so much that dealers are parking them in the back to make room for vehicles that are selling.....

They don't know what to do with them as the companies don't want them back....
Click to expand...
If I had the time and not much else to do, maybe I would put a V8 into a Tesla just for fun.
 
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