Graduated Licence systems: your thoughts?

Problem is, some of these people don't know exactly what they're getting themselves into. They know they wast a "fast bike" and go and tell the dealer that, not realizing a 600 is faster than most cars out there. Dealerships know this and walk over to the biggest bike they have on the showroom floor.

Just met a guy the other night who bought a brand new R1..didn't even know what the size was..just that it was "scary fast"

People should be allowed to pick whatever poison they want, but dealers need to show some integrity and sell someone a bike they will live on. Return customers are always a good thing lol
 
I doubt a graduated license like your thinking of would do much in the long run. A Ninja 250 will run 80mph, same as a ZX10, Gixxer 1K, Busa, etc.. The outcome of an inexperienced rider going into a 30mph right/left at 80mph will be the same no matter what size of bike they do it on.
The lady who lost the use of her arm had the accident on a bike that doesn't make much, if any, more power than my dirt bike does.
I believe it has way more to do with the mentality and general coordination of the person learning to ride the bike, than the bike or license restrictions.
If you don't take it seriously, or just can't walk and chew gum in general, a motorcycle no matter what size, will point this out in a sometimes very violent manner.


I agree with much of what you are saying. The example of my neighbours situation was not really related to graduated licencing but more to what inexperienced riders expectations are when getting into the sport in that they really don't have a clue what the demands are. The thing with big size and power is that bigger faster bikes can get you into trouble much much faster and the consequences of the trouble are far greater than with beginner bikes. The chances of getting yourself in trouble as a new rider in the twisties on a Busa are far greater than if you are on a GS500.
 
So a busa was my first bike, and i wrecked it going 40ish on a straight road. Us new riders have lessons to learn just like everybody else. teh fact that it was a busa rather than an r6 is irrelevant. mechanically what sets the busa apart from others is the weight and power. If you understand that then you are good to go IMHO. i can't help but take this personally because I do have less than 5 years riding xp. as a matter of fact i have 7 months xp... but I have logged 14.5k on that busa and for someone who doesnt know me, to try and say I do not "rate" a busa because i wrecked it, doesnt sit well.

When i had my wreck and Kento-moto called be (by chance) and I told him what happened. It was posted on here. and a lot of ppl sent prayers and such, even capt himself. That was a very humbling experience and I am gratefull. but another riders posts a wreck from misjudging a turn and this crap pops up.

Well that's my moment if shame, I messed up pure and simple, no underestimating my bike, no road debris, I just messed up.

:banghead:

sorry for rolling into a tangent
 
I am sorry if you are offended by this post but it is not aimed at anyone. It is aimed at trying to reduce injuries and deaths specifically in new riders. You have 7 months of riding experience and I have over 30 years of being a motorcyclist and listening and reading about riders hurting and killing themselves because they lacked the experience needed to ride safely. Better your feelings hurt than your body.
 
I am sorry if you are offended by this post but it is not aimed at anyone. It is aimed at trying to reduce injuries and deaths specifically in new riders. You have 7 months of riding experience and I have over 30 years of being a motorcyclist and listening and reading about riders hurting and killing themselves because they lacked the experience needed to ride safely. Better your feelings hurt than your body.

I understand. I for one welcome all input on my riding. but at the same time, i know im not an idiot. i cant speak for everyone though lol. i know i still have a lot to learn. and learn everyday. I just cant see where the bike is at fault. Yes its powerful and sexy, and i cant speak on whether or not it will get you in more trouble than another bike. but what i see, is knuckle-heads are going to be knuckle-heads regardless of the bike. a person going too fast intentionally is going to go too fast regardless of the bike.

i can see your point though. having 30 years of daling with this kinda stuff has got to be tough. with my short time i have seen too much already. but at the same time, that keeps my head on straight.
 
Really, a beginner bike isn't even a 600, though most think it is..they'll just about keep up with a busa until the higher speeds.

I was borrowing a Ninja 250 before my bike got shipped here and had a blast. No matter how hard I tried to go fast, it never really did anything. It was almost impossible to come into a normal corner hot because it required so much effort to get the bike going. Now that the busa is here, it's ridiculous...huge difference. I had to go through the first 3 gears on the Ninja just to break the legal limit..I do it in 1 on the busa

So I believe a bigger bike will get someone in trouble a LOT quicker than something a little less nuts. A new rider on a little bike could make a mistake and the bike won't be as rough on them. Either way, you could get just as hurt on a moped...it's all about the riders maturity/respect for the bike

And (not directing this to anyone, no ones even mentioned it on here) I laugh when people say "oh a 1000 is too small for me, I need a busa". I fit perfectly fine on the 250 and I'm 6'3" 285 lbs. Did I look a little goofy? Maybe...but riding was fun regardless.
 
I understand. I for one welcome all input on my riding. but at the same time, i know im not an idiot. i cant speak for everyone though lol. i know i still have a lot to learn. and learn everyday. I just cant see where the bike is at fault. Yes its powerful and sexy, and i cant speak on whether or not it will get you in more trouble than another bike. but what i see, is knuckle-heads are going to be knuckle-heads regardless of the bike. a person going too fast intentionally is going to go too fast regardless of the bike.

i can see your point though. having 30 years of daling with this kinda stuff has got to be tough. with my short time i have seen too much already. but at the same time, that keeps my head on straight.


And I am sure you know some knuckleheads as all of us do. People who you know will not do well on a sportbike, or any bike for that matter. If one of those people came to you and told you they were gonna buy a gixxer 1000, what would you say to them?

Bike size and power makes a very big difference. Go out and ride a GS500 and tell me about it. It takes forever to get to speeds that are outside your ability to make quick judgements (in relation to a Busa). On our bikes we can be going triple digits in seconds and before you know it that left hand sweeper is coming up waaaaaaay faster than you thought possible. Thats the difference. Single vehicle accidents. Crack the throttle on an open stretch of road. That car way in front of you is all of the sudden RIGHT in front of you and you clamp on the front brake....or is it the rear? I can still remember in vivid colour the mistakes I made as a teenager that almost cost me my life. If I was on a bike like the Busa I wouldn't be writing this right now. Remember that those of us who are over say 40, and learned to ride at a young age learned on bikes making 10, 20, 30 or 40 hp sometimes. Nowadays, people are calling an R6 a beginner bike! A beginner is a beginner is a beginner. It doesn't matter what decade you first twist the throttle on a motorcycle. The first time you do it you have zero skills and you work up from there.
 
Old fart talking here. In my day, a beginner bike was a dirt bike or a 350 cc twin for the street. A real hotrod bike was a CB or GS 750, Sportster 1000, or a Norton or Triumph. Those bikes put out maybe 70 hp or so.

Today even a 600 outclasses the "racers" of my day, and that's what we call a beginner bike?

Ok, the handling is greatly improved on all the new bikes over anything from 1975 (or 1980 or 1990), but handling won't help you if you're going too fast and you don't have the skill for it. And a Hayabusa is real easy to get going too fast on.

So yes, maybe we do need to have some form of regulation. But it would be better to have dealers talking some common sense to buyers. And we need buyers to have common sense for themselves. Not that we can expect either of those to happen.

Just because you can buy it doesn't mean you should own it or ride it. I sometimes wonder myself about owning such a beast.
 
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The subject is not going away any time soon. I have mixed emotions about it. We have graduated license for teenagers due to the fact traffic crashed is the number one killer of this age group.
Something should be done to reduce the number of motorcycle crashes.
The military is taking steps to address the problem, and they have a big problem.
ages 17 to 27 are their target group.
I heard there were more servicemen killed on motorcycles then killed in Iraq.

I don't understand why a graduated license for motorcycle riders causes so much controversy. Learn to ride before you twist the throttle on a superbike.
No one skies the black diamond on the first ski trip.
No one flies a fighter plane on the first flight.
It is irresponsible to ride any motorcycle on a public roadway with little or no training.
How many members would hand over the keys to their Busa not knowing the person's riding experience, maturity level and level of training?
So many riders no little or nothing about (motorcycle) vehicle dynamics, how to stop properly, counter steering, how much air should be in the tires. Most never touch the front brake because it scares them.

On the other side of the coin, I hate to see more government intrusion and more laws that are poorly written and do not address the underlying problem.
 
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9 months riding experience here. Upgraded to the Busa after my MSF course and riding(with lots of practice) a zx6r for two months. Love my Busa to the max!! The government better stay away from it. I wouldn't go back to a 600 after experiencing the comfort and joy of a 2k8 Hayabusa. I still do lots of practice and most days riding will start with figure 8s, slow maneuvers and emergency brake practice just to build in the skills. I respect the power of a superbike and I do my best to ride within my limits. Nuff respec to all you experienced riders out there!:bowdown:
 
On safe riding for beginners(and pros), the Ride Like a Pro V video was recommended to me by a friend and I bought that. It is a series by an ex-cop in Florida who teaches the same riding skills taught at the academy(supposedly). It helped me alot in my practice. In proving that his lesson can make a beginner learn quick and easy(after MSF course), there is a clip on his site where he teaches his secretary how to ride like a pro in 48hrs graduating to a Gold Wing at the end, preparing and entering a motorcyle skills show after. I say all this on this topic because personally the lessons made me a believer and have helped me tremendously. Still I consider myself a newbie and don't want to ever be over-confident at all while handling the Busa.

Stephanie Learns to Ride Like A Pro
 
No would be the answer because ity is anti-american to have government to decide what we can and can't do.
+1 on that one! the last thing i need is more government regulation in my life. think i can make my own bad choices, thank you very much.:brave:
 
Today even a 600 outclasses the "racers" of my day, and that's what we call a beginner bike?

This is so very true... I'll go one step further a say that current 600 cc "race replicas" outperform almost all bikes of the 90's. Blackbird being one acception I can think of off the top of my head. These bikes are just not good bikes to learn on period. These bikes with an average sized rider will do 0 to 60 in 3.0 seconds give or take a tenth. Top speeds around 150 mph. As an experienced rider I know first hand that the difference between a ho hum curve and spine shiver inducing curve is probably no more than few miles an hour faster once you've at 90 or 95 percent of your max skill set. This is why these bike are so very dangerous for new riders! They simple don't know what there skill set is and the power to weight ratios can absolutely blast through that comfort zone with a slight miscalulation of throttle. Braking on motorcycles can be explained ad infinitum but even after you have years of practical experience braking on motorcyles it's still part science, part art and part luck...

For all these reasons, people should not learn on these types of bikes.

However, I don't believe you should have to jump through goverment hoops to get a license. Peoples skills vary widely - some should probably never ride motorcycles in general and others will gain more skills in six months than I learned in my life.

Person responsiblity. I see people everyday during the summer riding in shorts and teeshirts. I don't understand it but I don't think it's the governments responsibility to save people from themselves.
 
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I beleive Germany , Europe and France use a graduated license system for motorcycles and I beleive Germany uses it for cars also. It might be a good idea to check their stats to see how well it works, or does not work for them. :poke:
 
*RANT ON*
This is a real sore spot for me.

The most frustrating thing about this topic is that I don't thing people fully understand the concept of a tiered licensing system and have a knee-jerk, "nobody should infringe on my rights" reaction. Trust me, given the gianormous (if that's even a word) state of our government today, I fully understand the concern. But a couple of points:

1. We already have forms of tiered licensing.

In order to get a driving license a person has to take the written driving test to make sure you know the rules of the road. If you pass, the person gets a "provisional license", ie: learner's permit. The right to drive a car as long as you have another licensed passenger in the car, no freeway or night driving. Presumably the DMV believes that if the passenger (parent) isn't too busy screaming and praying for deliverance, they will be able to actually impart some words of wisdom while giving the learner valuable time behind the wheel in real world situations. After 6 months (in Cali) or 60 hours behind the wheel, you are now permitted to take the driving test that allows you gain an unrestricted license. BUT even passing that doesn't give you full rights as a licensed driver. For one year no more than one other minor in the car with you, no cell phone use, at all. After a year you gain the freedom to terrorize the rest of the driving population with impunity.

(I'm not having too much of a problem with this. Actually, living in SoCal... I wish it were more stringent. If you ever get a chance to drive our freeways you'll understand perfectly what I mean. )

The second point...

2. Tiered licensing DOES NOT have to be patterned after any existing system from another country.

Yes, Europe has a tiered licensing system. Works well for them. Germany's is one of the most extreme I have ever seen (and they have far less accidents, per capita, than the U.S.). Our roads are not like theirs, our drivers are more experienced, our traffic laws are more comprehensive. THERE IS NO GUARANTEE THAT WHAT WORKS THERE WILL WORK HERE. It HAS to take a different form. Everybody thinks that it has to be like England or France or Germany... that's just not true. Tiered licensing would work and be more than beneficial if it's designed for us not forced upon us. Everyone is so scared it's going to be some Euro system.


How many of us would feel comfortable handing the keys of a Porsche GT or Mureclago over to an 18 year old with a year of driving experience? If you really think about it, we do that every time an 18 year old with a learners' permit rides off the lot on a literbike or... Busa. We've given them the keys and told them they're ready to ride the public streets on a vehicle that can out perform 98% of the cars registered in the state of California. If you give them a Busa, you've just handed over the keys of a bike that will out accelerate every car they will ever encounter except eight... in the world! I personally would like that sort of power and performance in the hands of someone who had more time in the seat than illegally riding his brother's bike around town, 4 hours of MSF time, or passing the lame DMV test (Given by DMV personnel that don't even ride). Heck, I had a hard time giving my 18 year old son the keys to our '92 Honda Accord. Driving a car is an awesome responsibility. Riding a motorcycle is infinitely harder... why judge any differently?

It's not like "The Man" is telling you you can't buy an R1 or Busa. A tiered system just says you can't ride it until you've proven you're capable of handling it. No need to get your chonies in a bunch by saying "How dare you question my ability!". You can't do a track day until you're PROVEN proficient, why should the streets be any different?

The big problem I have with the government getting involved with this is that they will pick some arbitrary way of doing it. Any tiered system MUST be designed by, and created by RIDERS. Riders who's qualifications aren't based on how long they've been riding but by how often they ride. I have a hard time listening to bureaucrats in Washington taking advice from "motorcycling experts" that live north of Ohio, ride on the weekends during the riding season and consider a front brake a needless accessory that wastes valuable chrome.

We're so concerned about protecting our freedoms. I'm concerned about my freedoms, too. The freedom to ride the canyons and highways without having to guard myself against the newbies learning to ride on a Gixxer1000, the old timer who hasn't ridden in 20 years who buys a bike that he has no business on, the kid with 6 months of riding time who believes he's invincible, or the 120 lb. woman who just passed MSF and buys a 900 lb. Harley because it's the only bike that she can sit flat-footed on.

The real reason we don't have a tiered licensing system here in the U.S. is because the manufacturers don't want it. They're perfectly happy to see this topic devolve into a "No one takes away my freedom" debate. A tiered system would force them to sell bikes in lower cc ranges in the U.S. Profit margins are significantly lower - Less R&D, less technology, simple construction and pedestrian materials. In Europe they have to fulfill that demand and they build brand loyalty by getting newbies on the smaller bikes during the tiers, so when they "graduate" to the Open Class they'll buy the bigger "profit" bikes. Over here... no such restrictions. We lucky folks get to wrap the new ZX-10 around a telephone pole sooner than our Euro brethren.

What cracks me up is that newbies and kids feel that they HAVE to have that bike NOW! Jeez, the big bikes will still be there in a year. They aren't going anywhere.

The real reason WE don't want to have a tiered system is people feel that if it's installed they won't have anything to ride.
That's what pisses me off the most - they're right! We have no choice under 600cc. Until Kawi redesigned the lil' Ninja what possible bike could we steer a new or inexperienced rider to? I totally understand why people buy bikes over their heads. Given the choice between a 20 year old 250 or a big arse cruiser there isn't a choice. Find a Euro bike magazine and take a look at what they have to choose from under 600cc's. Makes you sick just looking at stuff that will never hit our shore.

Many other countries categorize bikes as "transportation" not "recreational". That makes a big difference in how the government views them. Our government officials don't take riders seriously. We're pretty much a recreational nuisance. Instead laws looking out for us, laws are passed to protect drivers FROM us by limiting our rights. If you want to rail against "Big Brother" THAT'S where to start.

*Sorry*
 
I'm not saying we should do what other countries. I lived in Spain for three years. But we have to many people on the road here who have no clue.
I agree with most of what you said. We have to many people worried that he government is going to take something away. Some of the scariest people on the rode are the teenagers on the road. I raised two and I don't think the average 16 year old has the skillset or the focus for driving. It is not a right it is a priviledge where you show the maturity and skillset required like you do for your job or myriad other things you do you would not allow a child or an inexperienced person to do.
In Florida spring and summer is squid mating season. We have way to many people with no gear blasting around like they're at a fashion show. Here you are required to run a whlte license plate trimmed in red if you are under 21. The plate also states under 21. Seen a few of them go down. The experieced riders try to talk to them but it does not get through. They think they know what they are doing. We mainly don't ride with them because they are dangerous and draw to much attention. :beerchug:
 
Not good idea. Then the rules would have to apply to cars. Ever get in a regular car with 180hp and hop into a car with 500 or more. Again someone with not alot of driving experience will most likely rack it up. The person themselves should know there limits.We have enough regulations in the world today.
 
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