Graduated Licence systems: your thoughts?
- Thread starter bazooki
- Start date
ericridebike
Registered
What about some kind of requirement for a MSF or maybe sportbike specific new rider training class when you register a bike. I think a big problem is so many people buy bikes and don't even have their motorcycle endorsement. So, they don't even have the very basic info/knowledge base you get from getting that. (Not all that different from how they require you have a hunter's safety course before getting a hunting license). At the very least, I think you should have to provide proof of your motorcyle endorsement before you can register a motorcyle. Just my 2 cents.
How about before you can get a license for a car you have to have a motorcycle license for X amount of time. LOL I know its out there. Might aid in thinning out the population of .... and bail out the bike market 
. Then parents might consider the age of 16 too young to be driving, lowering our insurance premiums...but I want my freedom..I mean privileges too.
. Then parents might consider the age of 16 too young to be driving, lowering our insurance premiums...but I want my freedom..I mean privileges too.
In some states you really don't need to know how to ride or drive to get a license whether it be a car, truck or bike. They could make the test better(difficult) to really test the rider or driver's ability to control the vehicle. Our MSF course here is a joke an if opt for one of the privately run courses your license is guaranteed regardless of whether you know how to ride or not if you can make it out of the parking lot your getting your paper to get your endorsement. Our drivers test here in FL removed parallel parking from drivers exam because so many people would fail it an have to take it over an over again. Paint this pic in your head you got people who can't park a car much less drive it talking on the phone an driving like ass hats sharing the road with bikers(who may not be able to ride) an Floridians wonder why they pay so much in insurance. I think it would be better to make sure they have the skill an knowledge before they get a license.
BLUR
Registered
I'm surprised no one has mentioned the old addage, "Driving is a privlige not a right". We don't own any of the paved roads we drive on. They're not your property, they're the governments. So if you wish to drive on their roads, you best obey their rules and conform to their regulations. Every motor vehicle is developed based on the regulations of safety with lights, horns, airbags, seatbelts, crash tests, emissions, etc. I'm shocked that sportbikes are even allowed on the road considering our lawsuit infested society. I don't see a tier system, but more of a surchage on the vehicle purchase. Just as there is a gas guzzler charge, there would be an excessive power charge on certain vehicles so no rights are infringed upon, they get their money, and crotch rockets are put further out of reach of the younger(cheaper), less experienced crowd.
This would kill me I an not part of the younger an cheaper crowd, but I am a broke ass mature rider with a lot of riding experience :down: I am sure there a lot of riders who fall in the same category as me.
??? you don't think sportbikes should be on the road???
Who is they ??? That you think should get more money from me, why should I pay more to ride than someone else on a different type of bike. ???
I agree with you that we don't own the roads an should all comply to the rules of the road. But my tax dollars go to pay for this road and I a sportbiker should have the same rights as anyone else to ride on them as long as I obey the rules of the road. jmo
jetsetter
Registered
Give me liberty or give me death!
Have we all gone mad? We are Americans, the government doesn't own or control anything, the people do (or at least we are supposed to). Do you want young people to be educated? Educate them! Make them go to school, be a good parent, stop asking the government to babysit your kids. I was driving a car when I was eight years old (back before I ever had a chance to become a rebellious teenager). If a cop were to have caught my dad letting me drive, he would have been in trouble, but by the time I was old enough to have a license, I was an experienced driver (and all with my dad sitting beside me, making me toe the line). When I got my first bike, I was 22 years old. Did that stop Dad from stepping in a giving me a lecture about needing to take it seriously and be careful? No.
There is a problem with inexperience and stupidity, but a change to the licensing structure is not going to fix the problem, only address a symptom. I have a good friend that has never ridden a bike, he just got back from Afghanistan with some money burning a hole in his pocket. Everyone tried to get him to start on a smaller bike, but he thinks he needs a liter bike. He went out and bought a CBR 1000. It is absolutely retarded for him to do that, and I hate the fact that he did, but should it be illegal for him to have done it? NO! He may kill himself, and I would hate it if he did, but he was willing to risk his life to defend freedom in the war, I suppose he can do the same on a bike.
Have we all gone mad? We are Americans, the government doesn't own or control anything, the people do (or at least we are supposed to). Do you want young people to be educated? Educate them! Make them go to school, be a good parent, stop asking the government to babysit your kids. I was driving a car when I was eight years old (back before I ever had a chance to become a rebellious teenager). If a cop were to have caught my dad letting me drive, he would have been in trouble, but by the time I was old enough to have a license, I was an experienced driver (and all with my dad sitting beside me, making me toe the line). When I got my first bike, I was 22 years old. Did that stop Dad from stepping in a giving me a lecture about needing to take it seriously and be careful? No.
There is a problem with inexperience and stupidity, but a change to the licensing structure is not going to fix the problem, only address a symptom. I have a good friend that has never ridden a bike, he just got back from Afghanistan with some money burning a hole in his pocket. Everyone tried to get him to start on a smaller bike, but he thinks he needs a liter bike. He went out and bought a CBR 1000. It is absolutely retarded for him to do that, and I hate the fact that he did, but should it be illegal for him to have done it? NO! He may kill himself, and I would hate it if he did, but he was willing to risk his life to defend freedom in the war, I suppose he can do the same on a bike.
I totally agree with you. ANYONE in this country has a right to purchase whatever bike they want. It's not an issue of whether the government (or anyone, for that matter) can prevent you from buying something if it's legal to sell in this country. A tiered licensing system speaks to insuring the right to OPERATE it in a manner that is safe for everyone on the road.
If someone with no experience wants to buy (if it were legal) a 500cc two-stroke, R bike, I would say he/she has every God-given right to plow themselves into the telephone pole of their choice - IF THEY CAN GUARANTEE THAT THEY WON'T TAKE OUT ANY OTHER RIDER OR DRIVER ON THE ROAD.
Instead restricting what we can buy, it's better to insure that people are somewhat capable of operating what we buy.
We can buy any car we want, but we're not allowed to drive it until we prove we can. Seems right and fair. Why not for bikes?
It's not a rail against sportbikes. There are more bike accidents and injuries from cruisers and standards than our bikes. I've seen a newbie with a new license from the weak DMV test, ride his first bike - Harley Road Glide - and it was a scary sight.
We (tiered advocates) are not talking about some 5 year program administered by the DMV or some lame MSF school taught by brain-bucket wearing ABATE members. A graduated skills course that allows you to move up in class AT YOUR OWN PACE. Your starting level based on actual riding time not years riding.
Newbies and riders who have a 10 year gap in riding - 125cc - 500cc
Test after 6 months at that level (or 6000 miles) - 600cc - 750cc
Test after 6 months at that level (or 6000 miles) - Unlimited
VTwins would have to be slotted in somehow. Not to familiar with the cruiser configurations.
Is it perfect? Not really, but it does guarantee some experience will be gained before people hit the road riding machines they can't really handle. It's not going to create MotoGP caliber riders but man, it would be nice to share the road with people that understand their bikes better. And it would force manufacturers to make available to us, the nice lower cc bikes that everyone else gets.
The goal of "saving lives" could more effectively be achieved by enforcing rigorous competency-based skills assessments irrespective of the type/performance of a given vehicle be it a 50cc scooter or a 'Busa or a 635 HP Corvette. The drivers we see on the road every day threatening our lives are enabled by our local, state and federal governments who dole out the privilege to drive to any moron with a heartbeat. I despise the extent to which government has already crushed our freedoms and intrudes upon every aspect of our lives; however, when it routinely allows others to endanger our lives by allowing them to drive when they clearly do not have sufficient skills to do so, it fails in one of its most fundamental responsibilities.
Imagine this world: In order to be licensed to operate a motor vehicle, a driver would be required to demonstrate *real world* driving skills, not the ridiculously easy give-aways provided by your local DMV. Driving "right" on major highways would be aggressively enforced in order to allow faster-moving vehicles to safely pass. Minimum 2-second following distance would also be aggressively enforced. And, finally, all speed limits on major highways would be abolished. Seriously.
Now, since there is .009 % likelihood that all of the conditions described in the above paragraph will ever exist, I'll settle for just abolishing speed limits.
Imagine this world: In order to be licensed to operate a motor vehicle, a driver would be required to demonstrate *real world* driving skills, not the ridiculously easy give-aways provided by your local DMV. Driving "right" on major highways would be aggressively enforced in order to allow faster-moving vehicles to safely pass. Minimum 2-second following distance would also be aggressively enforced. And, finally, all speed limits on major highways would be abolished. Seriously.
Now, since there is .009 % likelihood that all of the conditions described in the above paragraph will ever exist, I'll settle for just abolishing speed limits.
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All motor vehicle driving tests should require a rudimentary knowledge of all vehicles they could encounter on the road and the laws governing THEIR operation.
In Cali we have lane-sharing (lane-splitting) but you would be shocked to know how many drivers out here don't know it's legal. Heck, drivers out here don't understand how to make a safe lane change, use their signals with proper distance or realize that side and rear mirrors have another use other than picking food out of their teeth or putting on makeup. We do have lots of laws and rules on the books that aren't enforced.
In Cali we have lane-sharing (lane-splitting) but you would be shocked to know how many drivers out here don't know it's legal. Heck, drivers out here don't understand how to make a safe lane change, use their signals with proper distance or realize that side and rear mirrors have another use other than picking food out of their teeth or putting on makeup. We do have lots of laws and rules on the books that aren't enforced.
jetsetter
Registered
I am aware of all of the problems that have been pointed to here. That's why I am careful and treat everyone else on the road like they are out to get me. Knowing that there are so many idiots on the road has never given me a desire to eliminate all the idiots (I consider that to be an impossibility), instead it drives me to be a better and more careful rider. My safety and well being is my responsibility, and who would I trust with that responsibility more than myself? As far as everyone else, they have their own lives to live. I believe in minding my own business and letting you mind yours.
After all, Darwin can't do his job if we don't let people make their own decisions.
After all, Darwin can't do his job if we don't let people make their own decisions.
jetsetter
Registered
Why not? All it takes now is $10 and half a day of your time off of work to stand in line waiting to be sent to another line. Then you take a written test that a monkey could pass and get your picture taken. The only thing a DL is good for is Identification, and that's exactly what it's used for. That license that we all carry doesn't mean that we know the first thing about driving, it just means that we have something to identify ourselves to the police man. Papers Please!
I have a CDL, and there was a comprehensive test to get that. It's different though, a CDL is needed to use the people's highway for commercial gain. It is unconstitutional for the government to limit an individuals travels on a highway that he (or she) has paid for with his (or her) tax money. Besides, even with formal schooling and hundreds of thousands (even millions) of miles driven, there are some pretty bad truckers out there.
I still think that there is no way to keep people from being idiots on the road. Therefore, you have to take responsibility for your own safety. If I don't feel safe traveling on the big bad highway with all the big bad cars, I'll stay home in fear, that's me managing my risks and controlling my own destiny.
fastblackblur
Registered
I agree that it would be totaly anti-American....
probably something we'll see in our lifetimes.
As long as it didn't effect my ability to take any given bike to the track I could cope with it.
probably something we'll see in our lifetimes.
As long as it didn't effect my ability to take any given bike to the track I could cope with it.
If I lived in Kansas I'd be wondering what the frig is this license for. I would have been driving at 12.
In L.A., I or someone else on the sidewalk would be in traction before the day was through. It IS relatively easy, and that's my point. Since it's so easy why not just pass the test and get the license? A lot of times it's not because of money - in Cali it's $25 to get your permit, $25 for the license (that's just 6 packs of smokes) - it's because the riders can't pass the freakin' DMV test!
I went to the Westminster DMV two years ago for a sign-off on my car. A kid was there with a sweet Duc 999, there to take his test. Had his permit for four months. I complemented him on the bike and gave him a few pointers, blah, blah, blah. The usual.
I hung around to watch him (from the parking lot). Massive fail, borderline EPIC. He flamed out on the friggin' cones! Not meaning to pile on the kid but it ain't rocket science. Now I, and my family, have to share ACH, Ortega Highway, or the 405 with this guy.
I totally agree it's not real world conditions (The only thing that comes close to that is an advanced skills class), but jeez... these are basic skills that prove that you can at least handle the bike you've chosen.
Granted. Thank our wonderful bureaucrats for this crap. Lets all water down the purpose of something just so we can use it for something else entirely. Don't get me started on how some in Cali are wanting to grant CDL to anyone as a right, not a privilege.
Because the roads are public and we all have to share them and we all should be able to prove some proficiency to command our vehicles, bikes and cars, whether commercial or not. I don't see the need for a license as limiting travel, I see it as the authorities doing the best they can to make sure that ALL of the public that has paid for that road can use it safely, within reason. Though they have paid their fair share of taxes to construct that road, 90 year old blue-hairs with coke bottle glasses should not be driving on it. ACLU said it's age discrimination. No... it's I CAN'T DRIVE ANYMORE discrimination. Sorry, no free passes. Gramps HAS to prove he can command his vehicle and he's not a death-dealer on the road.
Just because we have a huge number of people with licenses that don't know how to drive well shouldn't mean that we chuck it all and subscribe to the lowest common denominator. Imagine how many more bad truckers there would be without any kind of licensing requirement. Or, better yet, imagine allowing foreign truckers to be able to drive across the border or state lines. I live in SoCal... I wouldn't wish that carnage on anyone else in the country. What Mexico requires to get a license is steady breathing and opposable thumbs.
You are right. There is no foolproof way to prevent idiots from taking the road. I believe in Darwin (at least in this respect - another topic altogether) but Darwin doesn't seem to differentiate between award winners and innocent bystanders. I've been riding since '86 and I've seen too many riders take out others and then bail because they didn't have a license. Not because of some government regulation - they were just too lazy to take the test or didn't have enough command of their bikes to pass the flippin' test!
I wish all people were as forthright and stand-up as most of us that ride. There would be no need for a discussion like this. The guy I bought my bike from had it sold twice before me - to a girl that couldn't even hold the bike up and to a kid who didn't even know how to start it - both with cash-in-hand, and he canceled the deals. Not a lot of folks like that out there, unfortunately.
People respect things when they actually have to do something to earn it. We take a lot of our freedoms for granted because we were just lucky enough to be born here. If we don't do something ourselves to deal with stuff like this THE GOVERNMENT WILL DO IT - IN OUR OWN BEST INTEREST.
Where the frig have we heard THAT before.Great. Just what I want... a liberal free-for-all by the do-gooders that know what's best for me.
When that happens I want to be able to say, "We've done all we could within the bounds of the freedoms we possess to produce good riders. Now back off and go enforce the laws already on the books and leave us alone". I don't think we can say that now.
*note* I'm not trying to bait anyone or call anyone out. It's just very seldom that a debate about something like this goes on without becoming some sort of name-calling, free-for-all. I enjoy hearing different points and opinions. We may not all agree but if we bite our tongues nothing ever gets said. (And it really hurts, too.
)
†Wç†ëD
Registered
a lot of us did work up gradually, those of us that started when we were young anyways..
I don't think it really matters these days, say you start out on a 125 on to a 400 then a 600, the next leap is huge and takes sensibility anyways, busas can go slow its all operator prerogative and you can get in serious trouble on a 125 or any other 2 wheeled machine, a military vet lost his life on a scooter hit and run here recently, very sad..
spread as many safe thoughts as we can for our bros'.. right side up..
I don't think it really matters these days, say you start out on a 125 on to a 400 then a 600, the next leap is huge and takes sensibility anyways, busas can go slow its all operator prerogative and you can get in serious trouble on a 125 or any other 2 wheeled machine, a military vet lost his life on a scooter hit and run here recently, very sad..
spread as many safe thoughts as we can for our bros'.. right side up..
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