"Its all operator prerogative and you can get in serious trouble on a 125 or any other 2 wheeled machine."
Well said.
Well said.
Graduated Licence systems: your thoughts?
- Thread starter bazooki
- Start date
aussiesuzukirider
Never Forgotten
Here is what happens here where I live.
Learner Approved Motorcycle Scheme (LAM Scheme)
The Learner Approved Motorcycle Scheme (LAM Scheme) was introduced on 1 July 2009, and restricts class RE (restricted) motorcycle licence holders to a combined power-to-weight ratio and engine capacity restriction. The former 250 millilitre (mL) engine capacity restriction no longer applies.
The objectives of the scheme are to:
* improve safety for novice motorcycle riders
* achieve consistency between Queensland and the other eastern states (New South Wales, Victoria, Australian Capital Territory, Tasmania and South Australia).
Read the new rules for safer riding (PDF**, 352KB) brochure for more information about the LAM Scheme, new rules for displaying P-plates, and pillion passenger restrictions.
LAM Scheme capacity restrictions
The LAM Scheme restricts learner riders to motorcycles that comply with both of the following capacity restrictions:
* power-to-weight ratio must not exceed 150 kW/t
* engine capacity must not exceed 660 mL.
The power-to-weight ratio is a comparison of the engine output to the weight of the motorcycle. It is a measure of the motorcycle’s performance.
LAM Scheme list of approved motorcycles and scooters
Download the list of approved motorcycles and scooters (PDF**, 39KB).http://www.transport.qld.gov.au/resources/file/eb232b06ef08a71/Pdf_lam_scheme_list_090831.pdf
Motorcycle Safety Strategy 2009–2012
The LAM Scheme is an initiative of the Motorcycle Safety Strategy 2009–2012, a blueprint for motorcycle safety over the next four years.
Learner Approved Motorcycle Scheme (LAM Scheme)
The Learner Approved Motorcycle Scheme (LAM Scheme) was introduced on 1 July 2009, and restricts class RE (restricted) motorcycle licence holders to a combined power-to-weight ratio and engine capacity restriction. The former 250 millilitre (mL) engine capacity restriction no longer applies.
The objectives of the scheme are to:
* improve safety for novice motorcycle riders
* achieve consistency between Queensland and the other eastern states (New South Wales, Victoria, Australian Capital Territory, Tasmania and South Australia).
Read the new rules for safer riding (PDF**, 352KB) brochure for more information about the LAM Scheme, new rules for displaying P-plates, and pillion passenger restrictions.
LAM Scheme capacity restrictions
The LAM Scheme restricts learner riders to motorcycles that comply with both of the following capacity restrictions:
* power-to-weight ratio must not exceed 150 kW/t
* engine capacity must not exceed 660 mL.
The power-to-weight ratio is a comparison of the engine output to the weight of the motorcycle. It is a measure of the motorcycle’s performance.
LAM Scheme list of approved motorcycles and scooters
Download the list of approved motorcycles and scooters (PDF**, 39KB).http://www.transport.qld.gov.au/resources/file/eb232b06ef08a71/Pdf_lam_scheme_list_090831.pdf
Motorcycle Safety Strategy 2009–2012
The LAM Scheme is an initiative of the Motorcycle Safety Strategy 2009–2012, a blueprint for motorcycle safety over the next four years.
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jetsetter
Registered
*note* I'm not trying to bait anyone or call anyone out. It's just very seldom that a debate about something like this goes on without becoming some sort of name-calling, free-for-all. I enjoy hearing different points and opinions. We may not all agree but if we bite our tongues nothing ever gets said. (And it really hurts, too.)
I don't disagree that steps should be taken to help make the roadway as safe as it can be. We already have those very basic tests, but they aren't sufficient to really qualify a driver, and are therefore a waste. In my mind, it would be ideal if people could look out for their own well being and the well being of others, by being responsible and making good decisions. There are people on the road that simply don't have the talent to walk and chew gum, and they certainly could never hope to successfully operate a motor vehicle, I think that is rare though. I think it is more common that people have plenty of talent, but don't care. Guys that ride from bar to bar on their bike may be great riders, but how good are they after about the third bar? What about the guy on the cell phone? He may be an excellent driver, but the phone distracts him. What about any number of other situations where a person that is completely capable of passing a driving test does something stupid, that causes someone to die. All the licensing in the world won't stop people from being stupid. People have to make good decisions, and until they do, the road will be a dangerous place to be.
Just for the record, I don't think anyone should ride a bike. They are dangerous, I mean what if you hit a deer or something? Cars are much safer, they have air bags and seat belts. I mean, have you seen the drivers on the road these days? I don't want someone in Washington making decisions about my safety, because if they were given power to make the decision for me, I would never be allowed on a bike (neither would anybody else). To me, that would just suck, I like my bike.
bazooki
Registered
I wish all people were as forthright and stand-up as most of us that ride. There would be no need for a discussion like this. The guy I bought my bike from had it sold twice before me - to a girl that couldn't even hold the bike up and to a kid who didn't even know how to start it - both with cash-in-hand, and he canceled the deals. Not a lot of folks like that out there, unfortunately.
I would be interested to see how many people involved in this discussion would do the same kind of filtering when approached by a buyer with little or no experience and a wad of cash in their hands. I was selling my GSXR750 in the spring and I think I stated on this forum that I would not be selling to any newbie 16 year old that showed up with money in hand. Granted, I was not under financial stress to sell the bike in a big hurry but this has been my guideline each and every time I have sold a bike going back many years. If I don't think they are capable then I won't sell them my bike. Period. I don't need the guilt when a noob hurts or kills themself on my ride.
jetsetter
Registered
There are legal issues when selling anything to a minor. It would be a mistake to make any transaction that didn't involve a parent or guardian.
Just a question, with no offense intended... Would you have sold it to a 30 year old? Would you ask about their experience level? Would you take their word for it, or would you give them your own test to assess their skill level?
My point is, experience comes with age... sometimes age comes alone. Being 16 or being 30, there is no way you can assume that a person is experienced enough. I have a good friend, who's in his 40's that scares me to death every time I ride with him (not in a good way), and I know kids that have been riding a bike of one type or another since they could walk.
I don't hand over my keys to anybody, but if I had to pick between this particular kid and this particular 40 year old, I'd pick the kid any day.
Graduated licensing:
Done with:
Car racing
Boat racing
Motorcycle racing
Aircraft pilots licensing
Marine craft operators
Various driver licenses
Sports such as skydiving, scuba diving etc..
get the pattern here? things that could easily result in death to you or someone else are in fact pretty closely regulated already... Riding a 200mph motorcycle? I think falls into the same catagory as any of the above..
I do not like the govt telling me what I will or will not do any more than the next guy.. HOWEVER.. you have people that are basically too dumb to take care of themselves.. (is why we have welfare and a million other entitlement programs)..
These same cretins fail to control themselves on these bikes, crash and end up on the taxpayer roll as veggies or paralyzed individuals without sufficent (if any) insurance to pay their life needs for the rest of the days.. (you now enter my world)...
I do not feel any obligation to pay for some idiots ride into stupidity...
Sure some guys do just fine but the vast majority of "First time Owners" crash the bike in the first 30-60 days (95% according to insurance company actuary's)
So what do you give up... some freedom? some $$ to morons?
I dunno myself.... goes right along with helmet laws... you CAN NOT legislsate stupidity out of society...
seems to be one of those things that you do not make friends with regardless what you do.....
Done with:
Car racing
Boat racing
Motorcycle racing
Aircraft pilots licensing
Marine craft operators
Various driver licenses
Sports such as skydiving, scuba diving etc..
get the pattern here? things that could easily result in death to you or someone else are in fact pretty closely regulated already... Riding a 200mph motorcycle? I think falls into the same catagory as any of the above..
I do not like the govt telling me what I will or will not do any more than the next guy.. HOWEVER.. you have people that are basically too dumb to take care of themselves.. (is why we have welfare and a million other entitlement programs)..
These same cretins fail to control themselves on these bikes, crash and end up on the taxpayer roll as veggies or paralyzed individuals without sufficent (if any) insurance to pay their life needs for the rest of the days.. (you now enter my world)...
I do not feel any obligation to pay for some idiots ride into stupidity...
Sure some guys do just fine but the vast majority of "First time Owners" crash the bike in the first 30-60 days (95% according to insurance company actuary's)
So what do you give up... some freedom? some $$ to morons?
I dunno myself.... goes right along with helmet laws... you CAN NOT legislsate stupidity out of society...
seems to be one of those things that you do not make friends with regardless what you do.....
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bazooki
Registered
I used the example of a 16 yr old just because it is obvious that they could not have had their licence for any period of time (although they may have motox for years and I would take that into account). It doesn't matter whether the person was 16 or 46, if they had no experience I would not have sold it to them. I also don't allow test rides without the sale being processed so I have pretty long conversations with potential buyers when they are looking over my bikes. Throught this conversation I can tell how much they know, what they have owned and ridden in the past, etc. Some people try and BS you but you can catch them when you talk about bike details.....and they don't have a clue what you are talking about.
jetsetter
Registered
Not to argue, because I am not saying you are wrong at all. But something to think about is this: All the things you mentioned have something in common other than being dangerous. They all involve a third party being legally responsible for accidents that may happen. I mean, in a world that where McDonalds is legally responsible for someone that can't operate a cup of coffee, a race track is not going to let you run without some means of covering their back side. In my opinion, that is another example of stupid things our legal system is responsible for (the coffee, not the race track).
There is a big difference between using a private facility like a track, and using a public road. In the private facility, you should be subject to the guys rules, he has every right to make whatever rule he wants, and we have every right to not use his facility, if we don't like it.
I believe a person that uses any sport bike, including a 600, to learn how to ride, is a complete idiot. I would never let my kid be so stupid, and that is my place. For me to tell you that your kid can't do it, that's not my place. I don't drink alcohol, but I would never say that the government should outlaw it, even though it is responsible for lots of people dieing on the highway every day. I don't believe they can make me safe (maybe safer, but not safe) with more laws, and I'm not willing to give up any of my freedoms to find out if they can. It is very difficult and unusual for us to get a freedom back that has been taken away.
jetsetter
Registered
Good man! It's a damn shame more people don't exercise this kind of responsibility and common sense.
afterhours
Registered
the third party that is financially responsable is us....
when an idiot climbs aboard his bike and crashes, we pay for it. when he becomes paralyzed we pay for it, we injures someone else.....we pay for it.
in the old days money was the "tiered license system"....a newbie was typically young and could not afford the high dollar performance bike. today with financing anyone can buy the newest and the fastest.
if you want to buy a 200mph motorcycle for your 16 year old kid to drive, cool. you should however be forced to carry enough insurance so that when he slams that thing into a honda civic carrying a family and one of them dies they can recover a big chunk of cash....
you should also be forced to forego any disability from the government if he is injured and cannot work.
everybody talks about "freedom" to be stupid. they forget that freedom requires responsability.
if you want to be free and buy whatever you want.....fine, but i am tired of paying my city,state and federal taxes to subsidize your stupidity.
still a bad mix... although a guy with a ton of dirt experience stands a lot better chance of surviving.. he already has all the controls committed to reflex reactions.. (although the street requires some re-training and new skills)no! what if a guy has ridden dirt all his life and decides to buy a "busa" for a 1st street bike at 21yrs old? i know this is probably a small percentage of people but it exists.i agree with your reasoning but i think there are better alternatives.
I can tell you from experience that a 350cc bike is actually a lot more laughs and giggles to ride than the Busa... why?
a lot less danger from stupid inputs for one.. you can ride at WFO for minutes and be laughing like a school girl as you figure out how to eek another 1 or 2 mph out of a corner..
On the Busa? that speed is there by default.. all skill must be now applied to the opposite side of the spectrum.. slowing down... consequences of failing here are substantially worse than too slow..
Problem IMO is that EGO gets in the way of common sense.. I can honestly say I felt sort of retarded running my first track day on the Busa... the bike is clearly way way more than I can ride (and still is)
worse yet kids on 600's blow by you on corner exits and down the straights until you start to get an idea of what you can do..
I think a guy that starts out on a busa? has probably forever stunted his ability to gain riding skills.. He will never know what it is like to wring a machine out for all it is worth... He will always have a fear of his machine (as he should if he does not know how to handle the thing like a bad step child)
I have a lot of years on bikes and still think I want a smaller bike for pure "fun" The busa is a great bike but it demands so much attention and respect that it sucks some of the pure joy of motorcycle riding out of the sport.. (BUT is sure wakes up the soul at 150+
)
jetsetter
Registered
StromBusa
Registered
Natural Selection can use some help these days 
We don't need the govemrment to tell us how to do the right things, give people some credit. I doubt if anyone really buys a sport bike without knowing that it is a sportbike. And I doubt that too many greedy sales peeps would sell a 16 year old a Busa with out explaining/suggesting that he/she try out something smaller to get their feet wet. What people may not know, is that they will prolly wreck their first bile <repeatedly>. but they probably do in considering how few people ride. It's America, some of us will want to get on the mean horse.
We don't need the govemrment to tell us how to do the right things, give people some credit. I doubt if anyone really buys a sport bike without knowing that it is a sportbike. And I doubt that too many greedy sales peeps would sell a 16 year old a Busa with out explaining/suggesting that he/she try out something smaller to get their feet wet. What people may not know, is that they will prolly wreck their first bile <repeatedly>. but they probably do in considering how few people ride. It's America, some of us will want to get on the mean horse.
Absolutely! +1000000!
Nobody ever gets this. It's not how long you've been riding it's how often you ride that gives you experience. Pilots can speak to this. I believe their qualifications are measured in "flight time" not how many years they've known how to fly.
No matter how long you've had your license or have learned to ride, if you haven't rode a bike in 10 years I consider you to be a newbie. I've met guys that haven't rode in 15 years getting a bike because of gas prices who ask me what would be a good bike for them. I always start with a 600cc suggestion and the first thing out of their mouth is: "Oh, I used to ride a CB750 or 500 "something". That's way too small for me. I already know how to ride. I know I need something bigger 'cause that's what I used to ride."
So they opt for a literbike or bigger and it ends up collecting dust in the garage. Too scared to ride it. That's how I got my first Busa - '99 with 2900 miles on it - bought in '05. It wasn't the bike the PO remembered riding.
Insurance companies kinda regulate it now, most of the performance vehicles are toe o expensive to insure for owners under 25.
The insurance companies could simply not offer insurance for anyone under a certain age for certain vehicles. No need for the government to be involved. If you showed up to insure a Busa and you are 17, they simply say "I don't think so" you need to try a smaller motorcycle for a few years. Problem solved.
The insurance companies could simply not offer insurance for anyone under a certain age for certain vehicles. No need for the government to be involved. If you showed up to insure a Busa and you are 17, they simply say "I don't think so" you need to try a smaller motorcycle for a few years. Problem solved.
afterhours
Registered
the most dangerous riders i know......
1. don't have an M/C license
2. do not have insurance
PS: things like natural selection, and personal responsability sound good...but the fact is, when these idiots hurt themselves or somebody else, they do not pay for it.....
we pay for it. that helicopter ride form whatever mountain road they crashed on has to be paid for....usually it by us.
Peregrine Falcon89
Registered
sounds a lot like a despotic thought process to me.
regulated liscensing of vehicals (cars, trucks, sports cars, bikes, bicicles, ATVs, jet skis) is a great thought for saving lives, and a horrible thought for darwinism..
let nature take its course, I'd rather have stupid people die driving fast cars they cant handle, than drive regular cars and run me over.
just my 2c.
OH and BTW: im 20 years old, the busa is my SECOND bike, and I've only been riding street bikes for a little over a year.
first one was a 95', and the engine blew on it- not from excessive use / abuse.
(dirtbikes for about 10 years though
)
regulated liscensing of vehicals (cars, trucks, sports cars, bikes, bicicles, ATVs, jet skis) is a great thought for saving lives, and a horrible thought for darwinism..
let nature take its course, I'd rather have stupid people die driving fast cars they cant handle, than drive regular cars and run me over.
just my 2c.
OH and BTW: im 20 years old, the busa is my SECOND bike, and I've only been riding street bikes for a little over a year.
first one was a 95', and the engine blew on it- not from excessive use / abuse.
(dirtbikes for about 10 years though
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