Oil Grade stick with 10w 40 or ???

[RedBull]

Cold starts ,
so I split the difference
between Alisyn 0 / 20 and 15 / 40 !

What synthetic oil is recommended? | Gen 2 Busa Information

Hey everyone, I got back from a 3000 mile trip to yellowstone about a week ago and now I am getting close to oil change time. I am just curious, what do you guys recommend for fully synthetic oil as I have changed all my bikes to this after a couple thousand miles with great results? I used...

www.hayabusa.org

 

[Bumblebee]

I look at it kind of like this-Suzuki designed the engine, did all the R&D on it, spent countless hours testing it and have decreed !0W40 is the oil we should be using....

Good enough for me

 

[Mr Brown]

I have my answer. People have been using this oil in sport bikes, on the street, with many miles, even though it is thinner than 20 weight:

What is the best weight Alisyn oil for my application? – Brocks Performance

blog.brocksperformance.com

Changed to Full Syn oil and Petron .. @ ZX-14.com

I would never spend that kind of money on oil, or use additives (which seem to be required to smooth out the shifting with this Alisyn) but it is revolutionary to know that this oil maintains pressure in modern machines. Wow.

It's not just about maintaining pressure though, is it?
The website clearly states their goal is higher performance. But at what cost?
Also, anecdotal evidence is useless for showing generalizability.

 

[jch364]

Im not sure if it is in any way required to use additives but rather an even better level of added protection. That all being said I contacted them a little bit ago and as it was explained to me there is no concern about the oil not protecting like thicker oils from other brands. You guys can of course look for yourselves but I mean who really can say for sure. As for me I am going to stick with Brock and what his team has said on the issue. ...I do think I will send it off at the next oil change for analysis. Blackstone is the correct one right?

 

[Mr Brown]

Im not sure if it is in any way required to use additives but rather an even better level of added protection. That all being said I contacted them a little bit ago and as it was explained to me there is no concern about the oil not protecting like thicker oils from other brands. You guys can of course look for yourselves but I mean who really can say for sure. As for me I am going to stick with Brock and what his team has said on the issue. ...I do think I will send it off at the next oil change for analysis. Blackstone is the correct one right?

Would you expect them to say anything different?
The analysis will be the evidence of truth, hope you decide to send it.

 

[Hayabusa Wannabe]

It's not just about maintaining pressure though, is it?

Yes it is. I highly encourage you to read 540 Rat's blog which explains this.

Regarding the actual formula: Race oils with radically different additives, like a large amount of zinc, etc., that actually threaten metal integrity for example have such clearly stated with limitations like “track use only". Those issues are published. I see nothing like that, and of course Brock's is promoting the <0W for street use.

You made comments relating viscosity and friction performance. For clarity, that is anomalous. Friction protection is in no way related to viscosity. You can buy the very top (or the worst) friction performer in any viscosity that you want. Do you want to fail your Hayabusa engine using a particular 40 or 50 weight oil? You can find an oil to do that. (While pushing the bike hard, not tame use.)

The website clearly states their goal is higher performance. But at what cost?

With this thin oil performance comes from less force going to the pump. If it maintains required pressure in a particular setup and gets to the parts as it should then there is no cost.

If I wanted to use said oil I would put on a pressure gauge and watch it through the rev range on my bikes. That would be my full test. At least I gleaned that from 540 Rat, and I accept it.

Also, anecdotal evidence is useless for showing generalizability.

On one hand you have a point. It would make me very comfortable to see many different bikes tested with a great number of miles with this <0W oil. Until we have that, who the heck wants to experiment with the thinnest motor oil on the planet?

On the other hand, Brock's is going to go out of business in a couple months if a handful of Busa owners here adopt said oil and see engine failures. So we will have empirical evidence, either sooner or later.

Im not sure if it is in any way required to use additives but rather an even better level of added protection.

FYI I merely read in one of those threads that users were disappointed with the shifting and the additive cleared that up. I realize that is not a performance (power/longevity) problem. Clunky shifting, noise, etc. are separate from performance.

 

[Mr Brown]

Yes it is. I highly encourage you to read 540 Rat's blog which explains this.

Regarding the actual formula: Race oils with radically different additives, like a large amount of zinc, etc., that actually threaten metal integrity for example have such clearly stated with limitations like “track use only". Those issues are published. I see nothing like that, and of course Brock's is promoting the <0W for street use.

You made comments relating viscosity and friction performance. For clarity, that is anomalous. Friction protection is in no way related to viscosity. You can buy the very top (or the worst) friction performer in any viscosity that you want. Do you want to fail your Hayabusa engine using a particular 40 or 50 weight oil? You can find an oil to do that. (While pushing the bike hard, not tame use.)



With this thin oil performance comes from less force going to the pump. If it maintains required pressure in a particular setup and gets to the parts as it should then there is no cost.

If I wanted to use said oil I would put on a pressure gauge and watch it through the rev range on my bikes. That would be my full test. At least I gleaned that from 540 Rat, and I accept it.



On one hand you have a point. It would make me very comfortable to see many different bikes tested with a great number of miles with this <0W oil. Until we have that, who the heck wants to experiment with the thinnest motor oil on the planet?

On the other hand, Brock's is going to go out of business in a couple months if a handful of Busa owners here adopt said oil and see engine failures. So we will have empirical evidence, either sooner or later.



FYI I merely read in one of those threads that users were disappointed with the shifting and the additive cleared that up. I realize that is not a performance (power/longevity) problem. Clunky shifting, noise, etc. are separate from performance.

Friction protection is absolutely related to viscosity. A liquid cannot offer protection from friction between two solids if it's not there to protect. While I appreciate that pressure can compensate for lower viscosity, it cannot completely replace it.
Again, the question isn't wether lower viscosity oils offer protection, or even how they offer protection, it's at what cost. The law of diminishing returns applies here. Is it worth the gains in performance at the potential cost of damage? You believe it is, as do others, so act accordingly. I would like to see results before I decide. What Brock says is irrelevant, he's trying to sell something.

 

[jch364]

Would you expect them to say anything different?
The analysis will be the evidence of truth, hope you decide to send it.

I would expect Brock to tell the truth about any product he makes or supports. I have never known his shop to be deceptive in any way and I dont know of anyone who has done business with him that has claimed such. But yes, the analysis is everything and when I get it done I will post up whatever it shows. That will be the final page on the oil for me one way or the other.

 

[Mr Brown]

I would expect Brock to tell the truth about any product he makes or supports. I have never known his shop to be deceptive in any way and I dont know of anyone who has done business with him that has claimed such. But yes, the analysis is everything and when I get it done I will post up whatever it shows. That will be the final page on the oil for me one way or the other.

I have reasons for disliking bde. Glad your experience has been positive.

I will be looking forward to seeing what you find out.

 

[Tb3]

Does anybody else buy one quart of every oil on the shelf and mix them all together? That way you know you got at least one of the best oils in there

 

[WuzzaCBXRider]

Having run Amsoil 10/40 for 106,000 miles in my 82 air cooled CBX, 56,000 miles in my air cooled 1400cc v twin Suzuki Intruder, 26,000 miles in my son’s Triumph triple, 18,000 miles in my daughter’s SV650, almost 9,000 miles in my new Kawasaki Z900RS and nearly 70,000 miles in my Busa w/o using more than a half cup between 5,000 mile oil and filter changes and having no clutch slippage shows me enough evidence for me to continue using it.

 

[Hayabusa Wannabe]

Friction protection is absolutely related to viscosity. A liquid cannot offer protection from friction between two solids if it's not there to protect.

Please give an example of oil not being there, so that I have an idea of what you are saying.

 

[Mr Brown]

Viscosity is the resistance to flow. Less viscosity would therefore indicate a higher flow, which can be expressed as a higher tendency of movement away from a specific point of contact. If points of contact are where friction occurs, thinner oil is going to spend less time there than thicker oil.

 

[Hayabusa Wannabe]

A reading of sufficient pressure entirely predicts dry areas. If you are concerned about dry spots, we are agreeing on the exact same thing. If you think that thin oil will merely flow too fast, and that in itself reduces protection as the promoters of thick oil had argued, that has been proven wrong. The protection capability of an oil at sufficient pressure (no oil-starved areas) is solely determined by the formula and is unrelated to its viscosity, my main point, against a myth that unfortunately never dies.

 

[Mr Brown]

A reading of sufficient pressure entirely predicts dry areas. If you are concerned about dry spots, we are agreeing on the exact same thing. If you think that thin oil will merely flow too fast, and that in itself reduces protection as the promoters of thick oil had argued, that has been proven wrong. The protection capability of an oil at sufficient pressure (no oil-starved areas) is solely determined by the formula and is unrelated to its viscosity, my main point, against an idea that keeps perpetuating as myth unfortunately.

Sufficient pressure. There's your problem area. Theoretically you can achieve the same protection through increased pressure, but as I'm sure you know, pressure is a function of resistance, and the thinner the oil the harder it becomes to maintain sufficient pressure. Stock oil pumps were not designed to use that light of an oil, and will be more likely to struggle in maintaining said pressure.
Do you have evidence of this proof? Or are you relying on anecdotal evidence?

 

[Hayabusa Wannabe]

That came from the blog of 540 Rat, a lubricant industry engineer, who determined this on a lab bench and empirical feedback from engine builders. No one has produced a single data point to refute this conclusion of his.

 

[Mr Brown]

That came from the blog of 540 Rat, a lubricant industry engineer, who determined this on a lab bench and empirical feedback from engine builders. No one has produced a single data point to refute this conclusion of his.

When I get time I'll check out his methods. Did he conduct double blind tests? How many engine builders did he survey? Did he ask them all identical questions? Those sort of things are what I'll be looking for.

 

[Hayabusa Wannabe]

Stock oil pumps were not designed to use that light of an oil, and will be more likely to struggle in maintaining said pressure.

One of my first comments when I posted the specific viscosity of this <0W oil:

So motorcyclists are using oil far thinner than 20 weight in stock engines? Did I do something wrong here? And I was still wondering if 20 weight would maintain enough pressure in engines designed before the 20 weight came about? If yes, this is an astounding revelation."

You are right when you say "don't just believe the salesman". Who can disagree? So we await Blackstone results, and that really in hindsight would indicate a pressure problem. But selling a motor oil for specific vehicles that does not maintain rule-of-thumb pressure? LOL What is Brock planning? A rowboat full of cash and heading to the Caymen Islands to avoid bike owners?

When you cannot get secret, proprietary data, you only have logic to work through, and that can at a minimum guess pretty far ahead.

 

[Hayabusa Wannabe]

When I get time I'll check out his methods. Did he conduct double blind tests? How many engine builders did he survey? Did he ask them all identical questions? Those sort of things are what I'll be looking for.

He does not publish his method because he altered an ASTM method and it gives him and his company a competitive advantage.

 

[Mr Brown]

He does not publish his method because he altered an ASTM method and it gives him and his company a competitive advantage.

Method of evaluation has to be discussed in order for results to be considered reliable and/or valid.