Oil Grade stick with 10w 40 or ???

[Mr Brown]

One of my first comments when I posted the specific viscosity of this <0W oil:

So motorcyclists are using oil far thinner than 20 weight in stock engines? Did I do something wrong here? And I was still wondering if 20 weight would maintain enough pressure in engines designed before the 20 weight came about? If yes, this is an astounding revelation."

You are right when you say "don't just believe the salesman". Who can disagree? So we await Blackstone results, and that really in hindsight would indicate a pressure problem. But selling a motor oil for specific vehicles that does not maintain rule-of-thumb pressure? LOL What is Brock planning? A rowboat full of cash and heading to the Caymen Islands to avoid bike owners?

When you cannot get secret, proprietary data, you only have logic to work through, and that can at a minimum guess pretty far ahead.

Again, because it worked once for one person doesn't mean that it will every time, or any other time. That's what empirical research offers. Repeatable testing and discussion of likelihood of outcome.

I don't know what Brock is planning, but do I believe that people are capable of lying to a group of motorcycle owners to take financial advantage of them? Absolutely, I've seen it happen. On this very site actually...

Formula is proprietary, test method and results aren't. Two separate things.

 

[RedBull]

I look at it
kind of like this -
Suzuki designed the engine ,
did all the Research & Development on it ,
spent countless hours testing it and have decreed !

10W40 is the oil we should be using . . .

Good enough for me .

Poll: Motul 3000 10w40 Oil and HIFLO HF138 Filter | Maintenance and Do-It-Yourself

About to change the oil and filter using Motul 3000 10w40 Oil and HIFLO HF138 Filter. Good choice? Bad choice? Vote up and post up and post up with any further feedback. Thanks!

www.hayabusa.org

 

[busafan08]

Sorry so what brand and viscosity is jch364 going to use in his ZX14

 

[Mr Brown]

Sorry so what brand and viscosity is jch364 going to use in his ZX14

The 0 weight stuff Brock recommends.

 

[Hayabusa Wannabe]

Formula is proprietary, test method and results aren't. Two separate things.

That is wrong. Every manufacturing company around you has proprietary test methods that they developed but will never publish in the ASTM catalog for others to analyze.

Sorry so what brand and viscosity is jch364 going to use in his ZX14

Exit stage left. I thank you busafan08.

Alisyn ProDrive 21 Type 1 (viscosity rating less than 0W)
and he wrote that he is using the *Petron Plus* additive

 

[Mr Brown]

That is wrong. Every manufacturing company around you has proprietary test methods that they developed but will never publish in the ASTM catalog for others to analyze.

Sure, manufacturers may have proprietary test procedures for internal analysis, but in order for outside independent evaluation (I.e. evidence to support claims made by manufacturers) repeatable, scientific, reported test methods are used. Brock doesn't manufacture the oil he sells, so he should use scientific methods of testing to evaluate the material.
I'm not sure if you understand what I'm saying, but I'm running out of ways to repeat it more simply. I'll try again: Sellers who want people to buy something specific (manufacturers, paid endorsers, etc) make claims about what they are pushing. Independent analysis either supports those claims, or it does not. There are specific criteria which have to be met in order for a test to be deemed legitimate, and thus the claim it supports legitimate as well. Barring this, any claims are simply that, claims. Anybody can claim anything, but in order for it to be taken seriously they have to provide supporting evidence. A claim isn't validated by a lack of evidence supporting an alternative claim, by that logic if I claim unicorns exist you have to believe they do, because nobody has offered evidence that they don't.
You can choose to believe what I'm saying or not, but research is part of what I do for a living. I'm very familiar with how the process works.

 

[Hayabusa Wannabe]

Brock doesn't manufacture the oil he sells, so he should use scientific methods of testing to evaluate the material.

You should call him and suggest that. Then ask about any legal constraints he may have in revealing his results. How is he going to purchase $100,000 worth of tribology equipment for analysis? Where is the time for scientific testing when his core function is building bikes?

He is a performance shop not a testing laboratory.

Every seller is bound by an infinite web of legalese. It is likely that they cannot tell you anything, ever, except the carefully chosen marketing speak.

Skepticism and critical analysis are good. (Paranoia = BAD!) It is nice that you have a genuine concern about protecting the cash of the people here. That is nothing if not noble. Along with everyone else, I am protected by any of your efforts, that is nice, and I am just as grateful as anyone.

You can demand data from every marketer, everyone offering a product and service but you will almost never get it. And that does not necessarily make them nefarious. That is the reality of the modern world and the constraints that everyone is saddled with, ergo, we must do our own tests.


Coming to a Hayabusa.org near you: Reviews of
Alisyn ProDrive 21 Type 1 (viscosity rating less than 0W)

Special Bonus! *Petron Plus* additive

 

[rubbersidedown]

Wow,you guys sound like freakin' scientists or something.I don't think I could have written 10% as good of an' opinion as you fella's have, even if I had a full set of Encyclopedia Britannica in front of me. Do you guys think maybe you could "dumb it down" a little for the rest of us.
For me,if an' oil is good an' slippery...that's enough.
Rubb.

 

[Hayabusa Wannabe]

For me,if an' oil is good an' slippery...that's enough.

To be honest I am actually quite simpatico with that!

 

[Red05]

Having run Amsoil 10/40 for 106,000 miles in my 82 air cooled CBX, 56,000 miles in my air cooled 1400cc v twin Suzuki Intruder, 26,000 miles in my son’s Triumph triple, 18,000 miles in my daughter’s SV650, almost 9,000 miles in my new Kawasaki Z900RS and nearly 70,000 miles in my Busa w/o using more than a half cup between 5,000 mile oil and filter changes and having no clutch slippage shows me enough evidence for me to continue using it.

There it is. Lock, stock and barrel of oil. Nothing like good old experience, especially over a quarter of a million miles

 

[Mr Brown]

You should call him and suggest that. Then ask about any legal constraints he may have in revealing his results. How is he going to purchase $100,000 worth of tribology equipment for analysis? Where is the time for scientific testing when his core function is building bikes?

He is a performance shop not a testing laboratory.

Every seller is bound by an infinite web of legalese. It is likely that they cannot tell you anything, ever, except the carefully chosen marketing speak.

Skepticism and critical analysis are good. (Paranoia = BAD!) It is nice that you have a genuine concern about protecting the cash of the people here. That is nothing if not noble. Along with everyone else, I am protected by any of your efforts, that is nice, and I am just as grateful as anyone.

You can demand data from every marketer, everyone offering a product and service but you will almost never get it. And that does not necessarily make them nefarious. That is the reality of the modern world and the constraints that everyone is saddled with, ergo, we must do our own tests.


Coming to a Hayabusa.org near you: Reviews of
Alisyn ProDrive 21 Type 1 (viscosity rating less than 0W)

Special Bonus! *Petron Plus* additive

You're conflating two issues.
I am talking about the testing process, not a specific outcome. I wanted other people to understand how testing works, and that claims aren't the same as results.
I'm not going to ask Brock or anyone else for data, I'm simply not going to buy products marketed on unsubstantiated claims. He can say whatever he wants, if you choose to believe them, hey it's your money.
Your argument about doing our own tests doesn't track, what you meant to say was we should have preliminary analysis performed, which is what @jch364 is planning on doing.
So there is no confusion about my position on this subject, I don't know if the oil in question provides enough protection, I am curious to see if it dies. I am skeptical of claims made without supporting evidence, and I know that only fools rely solely on the untested claims of a seller. Are you not familiar with the phrases "buyer beware" and "snake oil salesman"? Why do you think those exist?
Of course skepticism and critical analysis are good things, as a trained researcher I'm aware of this, but you must not understand the definition of paranoia to suggest that's what my analysis resembles.
Tell me, what do you do for a living?

 

[Mr Brown]

To be honest I am actually quite simpatico with that!

I've long been of the opinion that when it comes to oil, some is better than none.

 

[Mr Brown]

There it is. Lock, stock and barrel of oil. Nothing like good old experience, especially over a quarter of a million miles

....and no claims made, other than it worked well for him. Perfectly acceptable in my world!

 

[rubbersidedown]

Having run Amsoil 10/40 for 106,000 miles in my 82 air cooled CBX, 56,000 miles in my air cooled 1400cc v twin Suzuki Intruder, 26,000 miles in my son’s Triumph triple, 18,000 miles in my daughter’s SV650, almost 9,000 miles in my new Kawasaki Z900RS and nearly 70,000 miles in my Busa w/o using more than a half cup between 5,000 mile oil and filter changes and having no clutch slippage shows me enough evidence for me to continue using it.

I had an' Intruder...I had the 1400's little baby brother,the 750.
Rubb.

 

[rubbersidedown]

Caveat emptor... so there.
Rubb.

 

[Bumblebee]

Older brother uses cheapo dino oil in his Beemer with 250,000 miles on it..he does regular oil changes and found it is using no oil. He has never had the jugs off the engine.

 

[rubbersidedown]

Older brother uses cheapo dino oil in his Beemer with 250,000 miles on it..he does regular oil changes and found it is using no oil. He has never had the jugs off the engine.

I like how you worked the word "jugs" into this thread.
Very apropos...
All these big words,I feel like a oil scientist.
Rubb.

 

[rubbersidedown]

Older brother uses cheapo dino oil in his Beemer with 250,000 miles on it..he does regular oil changes and found it is using no oil. He has never had the jugs off the engine.

Some people swear by this technique ....quantity vs quality. Change it out often. I'm sorta half way between the two. Quality oil at Suzuki/oil manufactures recommendation. Oil is too expensive if you ask me. In my part of the world Amsoil is like 25 bucks a quart,and it does not come with free Vasoline.
Rubb.

 

[Bumblebee]

I use Royal Purple and change out every 8000 kms. I don't rev my bike hard nor do I ride it in extreme conditions (heavy dust, colder weather) so it is pretty much babied.

 

[jch364]

Well I am not a researcher not a scientist, dont know how to wrench a motor and dont know how to build a turbo even if I had stayed at a Holiday Inn. I admire those who can and are. I can change oil, plugs, chains and sprockets so for me taking things on faith sometimes is necessary. Although I try to do as much research as I can before I decide how to proceed. Still some things dont work out no matter what you do. Im sure for those who can do builds have had times that you were sure everything was right only to find out that you were wrong somewhere along the way. Its life. Maybe I am the fool here but yes I do trust Brock Davidson and no I do not think him a snake oil salesman. He is one of the best in the industry. He set a worlds record fastest qtr mile and built a great company that has supported many top runs from either lsr or qtr mile. I think he has done his research on this but I will still have the oil analyzed, and before rubb points out that this means I have doubts in my own statements, its just because I really just want to know because I think it will prove my belief correct .And If I am wrong I will be the first person to SAY SO without embarrassment. And I can share it with everyone so we can all benefit from the knowledge. Now since I will probably have no idea what any of it means when I get it I will simply post it up and let everyone take a look at it and decide for themselves. AND if I am wrong and the results show poor results then I will switch back to amsoil and maybe have it tested as well and look at them both. Probably wont be done till late summer. I SWEAR I DIDN'T MEAN TO START A KNIFE FIGHT!