Okay, I'm curious...

[Turbo-Torch]

I wrote a paper on this subject in college. The teacher thought so highly of it that she read it to the entire class.

There may not be an actual solution, however, killing them will not bring anyone back. The cost to prosecute an alleged murderer far exceeds (by millions) the cost to simply house and feed them for the rest of their life. I truly believe that allowing them to live in a cell for the rest of their life is a harsher punishment the killing them. Then you have the possibility that the accused may actually be innocent

I know that I couldn't pull that handle or inject that needle, but then I haven't lost a loved one. How can we value human life by killing someone else? It's hypocritical to say the least and someday the human race will evolve to the point that capitol punishment will no longer exist.

As Ghandi said, "An eye for an eye then everyone is blind."

I sort of like your views on the subject.

The biggest hang up for me is that one innocent person being executed is one too many.

The whole situation needs to be black & white with no gray area.

If a thug is caught flat out red handed, then fine, kill him. Say if someone robs a bank, kills a teller and is then tackled by police as he's fleeing the bank, that guy should be put to death within 7 days. All common sense, no lawyers needed thus no huge burden on the tax payers.

If someone flat out admits to a murder, same thing.

Now if police find someone murdered and have to gather evidence, find suspects, eventually arrest someone, send that person to court and then have 12 retards deliberate for weeks on end only to find someone guilty...uh no sorry that's BS.

There were recently plenty of people pardoned from death row in IL. One guy was on death row for a dual murder in 1986. In 1999 his sentence was changed to life in prison and then in 2004 he was found innocent due to new evidence and DNA testing. 17 years of your life GONE and then 13 of those 17 spent waiting to die for something you had no part of?

Yeah I have plenty of TRUST in the SYSTEM...it's just fuggin' great!

To take it further, how many rich people get executed vs. poor people? If you've got $$$ like OJ or MJ you can pretty much get away with anything you want.

As far as prisons go, they don't have to cost a lot. Build large prisons in the middle of the desert for the violent savage fags. During the day they are put to work in a way that contributes to society. At night they can rape each other up the azz or kill one another all they want.
No phones, no tv, no cable, no work out rooms and no education. Bare minimum bland food that's grown or raised on prison grounds by the prisoners. Tooth ache? Sorry it's not getting drilled and filled, yank it out!

People that have NO past violent history (even if they're on death row) and none violent first time offenders for crimes such as white collar, theft, vandalism, dui's, dead beat dads, possesion of drugs (for personal use) ect. should not be put in with the savage fags above. However one assualt against another prisoner or a guard and it's off to the desert.
I do feel there needs to be punishment and rehabilitation. For punishment, well...I'm a big fan of public canings. It gets the point across to the general public and the offender will think twice before deciding to steal another Busa.
After the caning, the prison they serve time in should be safe and aimed at rehabilitation. Education, drug and alcohol treatment programs and job placement should be mandatory. At the same time the prisoners will need to work while in prison to offset the costs. Once they are out and working, so much is deducted from their paycheck each week until the debt is paid off. For someone that already had money, they can write off a check for their room and board.
Throw these types of people in with the savage thugs and odds are they'll come out (if they survive) worse off than when they went in.
Actually for crimes like dead beat dads and first time DUI, house arrest with work release is better yet. Losing a job will just make the problem worse. Of course the public caning still applies!

 

[Mr Brown]

We have created a system that doesn't work and we make it worse because we don't trust it to work.
[/QUOTE]
If it doesn't work, how can we make it worse by not trusting it? That makes no sense.....
The moral decay of our society isn't because of lawyers, it's due to companies like Viacom that grab the minds of children when they're not much more than 1 year old with Nickelodeon, then Nick Jr gets ahold of them and just when they get really hungry for whats cool and socially acceptable behavior in comes MTV! [/QUOTE]
It's not the fault of the companies as you suggest, it's the fault of parents who allow their children to sit for hours in front of the programming. When I was young, my parents dictated what was happening in the home, not the kids. If I got mad because I couldn't watch/read/do whatever I wanted, then I was just mad. My kids do not run my household, the grown ups do. I'm tired of people blaming tv for their parental shortcomings. The media companies exist to turn a profit, if nobody watched what they put on, it would soon change.
But somewhere right now is a 6 year old kid sitting in front of the TV memorizing the lyrics of 50 Cent. and when he grows up wanting to Get Rich or Die Trying, we'll be standing there to throw the switch wondering what happended.
[/QUOTE]
If you allow your 6 y/o to listen to the unrated versions of such music, you are a complete failure as a parent, and it's your fault, not 50's.
To kill is animalistic.
To seek vengeance is human.
To forgive is Godly.
Which will you be today.
[/QUOTE]
To kill indisciminately is uniquely human, animals kill to survive.
To seek vengance is indeed human.
To forgive could be considered Godly, but it is not only God that forgives.
"Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord".[/QUOTE]
Yeah, in the Old Testament. Jesus subsequently told Christians to "Turn the other cheek", or did you skip that part last time you were studying the bible? This has got to be one of the most quoted out of context Bible passages...
Our correctional system is a band-aid approach to an ever growing problem. we cant create a solution to the problem.[/QUOTE]
Of course we can create a solution, we always do. When enough people get sick of the way things are, it'll change.
so I ask you this WHAT WILL YOU BE WILLING TO DO ABOUT IT?[/QUOTE]
Raise my kids the best I can. How about you, what are you gonna do? Keep blaming society for your shortcomings?

 

[Tree]

OK here's my $.02

If you are caught red handed, on tap Etc. murder, rape, attempted murder, like was mentioned before... 7 days to the grave. As for the human rights bull $hit. What ever happened to victims rights.

Lawyers are a huge problem. When a criminal breaks into my house and breaks his leg, what gives him the right to sue me? I have a firm policy at my house. If you break in, you will be carried out in a bag.

Prison. Simple. They get a 10x10 cell, complete with shower, sink and toilet. A matress, pillow and a couple of blankets. The door will have an additional opening where the "necessities" can be transfered, and bedding can be exchanged. If they clog their toilet, they sleep in their waste. 3 hot meals a day. If they are going to be there for life, they don't need to read or be rehabilitated. Let them rot. Obviously this is for Lifers only.

If there is no concequences for your actions, there is no reason to stop doing what you are doing. Harsher penalties are the key. If you don't think so, take a look at a few countries over seas.

DUI's are a huge problem. If you get a dui, and all tests show you are drunk (blood and breathalizer, etc.) NO lawyer should be able to get you off. The first one of you that wines at this, look at Janklovitch. He had been arrested 11 (I think) times for DUI. Not unitll he killed a motorcyclist, did it even become public knowledge. Then a slap on the wrist, for murder.

Violent, deliberate assult. Like the guy that beat the female cop in Texas, and it was caught on the dash cam. He would have killed her if a person hadn't stopped. Espically assult on a LEO. 7 Days!

Criminals and people a like, try and place the blame on some one else. It's because my mom didn't love me enough, my dad didn't hold my hand, God told me to, PMS (Sorry Michelle, but it has been used before.), mommy and daddy used to fight all the time, Bla bla bla.. Suck it up like the rest of us. Deal with it and move on. If you can't do it on your own get help. If you can't afford the help, weigh your options, death, life in prision, or help.

Everyone has to take responsibility for thier own actions!!!!! Just like the FCC puting regulations on radio and TV. If you don't want your kids watching or listening, TURN IT OFF!! You are the adult, be a parent! Everyone shouldn't have to pay because you are too lazy to pay attention to what your kids are doing. Don't expect Uncle Sam to babysit. (On a side note: We have a ton of responsible parents on the board here. This is obvious by the pride and pictures of their children posted here. These comments are not directed at any one person.)

Corpral punishment was common when I was growing up. You screwed up, you paid up. My mom liked to smack me on the shoulder blade. Hurt like hell, and you couldn't reach it to rub it.

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

That's enough for now.

Steve

 

[Devious]

OK here's my $.02

If you are caught red handed, on tap Etc. murder, rape, attempted murder, like was mentioned before... 7 days to the grave.  As for the human rights bull $hit.  What ever happened to victims rights.

Lawyers are a huge problem.  When a criminal breaks into my house and breaks his leg, what gives him the right to sue me?  I have a firm policy at my house.  If you break in, you will be carried out in a bag.  

Prison.  Simple.  They get a 10x10 cell, complete with shower, sink and toilet.  A matress, pillow and a couple of blankets.  The door will have an additional opening where the "necessities" can be transfered, and bedding can be exchanged.  If they clog their toilet, they sleep in their waste.  3 hot meals a day.  If they are going to be there for life, they don't need to read or be rehabilitated.  Let them rot.  Obviously this is for Lifers only.

If there is no concequences for your actions, there is no reason to stop doing what you are doing.  Harsher penalties are the key.  If you don't think so, take a look at a few countries over seas.  

DUI's are a huge problem.  If you get a dui, and all tests show you are drunk (blood and breathalizer, etc.) NO lawyer should be able to get you off.  The first one of you that wines at this, look at Janklovitch.  He had been arrested 11 (I think) times for DUI.  Not unitll he killed a motorcyclist, did it even become public knowledge.  Then a slap on the wrist, for murder.

Violent, deliberate assult.  Like the guy that beat the female cop in Texas, and it was caught on the dash cam.  He would have killed her if a person hadn't stopped.  Espically assult on a LEO.  7 Days!

Criminals and people a like, try and place the blame on some one else.  It's because my mom didn't love me enough, my dad didn't hold my hand, God told me to, PMS (Sorry Michelle, but it has been used before.), mommy and daddy used to fight all the time, Bla bla bla..  Suck it up like the rest of us.  Deal with it and move on.  If you can't do it on your own get help.  If you can't afford the help, weigh your options, death, life in prision, or help.

Everyone has to take responsibility for thier own actions!!!!!  Just like the FCC puting regulations on radio and TV.  If you don't want your kids watching or listening, TURN IT OFF!!  You are the adult, be a parent!  Everyone shouldn't have to pay because you are too lazy to pay attention to what your kids are doing.  Don't expect Uncle Sam to babysit.  (On a side note:  We have a ton of responsible parents on the board here.  This is obvious by the pride and pictures of their children posted here.  These comments are not directed at any one person.)

Corpral punishment was common when I was growing up.  You screwed up, you paid up.  My mom liked to smack me on the shoulder blade.  Hurt like hell, and you couldn't reach it to rub it.

If you can't do the time, don't do the crime.

That's enough for now.

Steve

F*ckin a'...I've been to those Countrys and they have the right idea. No more BS. No more Laywers. Just the facts Mam. There are too many bleeding heart liberls in this Country to make this happen now. But I would love to see it.


David



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[dudewizr]

We have created a system that doesn't work and we make it worse because we don't trust it to work.  

If it doesn't work, how can we make it worse by not trusting it? That makes no sense.....
The moral decay of our society isn't because of lawyers, it's due to companies like Viacom that grab the minds of children when they're not much more than 1 year old with Nickelodeon, then Nick Jr gets ahold of them and just when they get really hungry for whats cool and socially acceptable behavior in comes MTV! [/QUOTE]
It's not the fault of the companies as you suggest, it's the fault of parents who allow their children to sit for hours in front of the programming. When I was young, my parents dictated what was happening in the home, not the kids. If I got mad because I couldn't watch/read/do whatever I wanted, then I was just mad. My kids do not run my household, the grown ups do. I'm tired of people blaming tv for their parental shortcomings. The media companies exist to turn a profit, if nobody watched what they put on, it would soon change.
But somewhere right now is a 6 year old kid sitting in front of the TV memorizing the lyrics of 50 Cent.  and when he grows up wanting to Get Rich or Die Trying, we'll be standing there to throw the switch wondering what happended.
[/QUOTE]
If you allow your 6 y/o to listen to the unrated versions of such music, you are a complete failure as a parent, and it's your fault, not 50's.
To kill is animalistic.
To seek vengeance is human.
To forgive is Godly.
Which will you be today.  
[/QUOTE]
To kill indisciminately is uniquely human, animals kill to survive.
To seek vengance is indeed human.
To forgive could be considered Godly, but it is not only God that forgives.
"Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord".[/QUOTE]
Yeah, in the Old Testament. Jesus subsequently told Christians to "Turn the other cheek", or did you skip that part last time you were studying the bible? This has got to be one of the most quoted out of context Bible passages...
Our correctional system is a band-aid approach to an ever growing problem.  we cant create a solution to the problem.[/QUOTE]
Of course we can create a solution, we always do. When enough people get sick of the way things are, it'll change.
so I ask you this WHAT WILL YOU BE WILLING TO DO ABOUT IT?[/QUOTE]
Raise my kids the best I can. How about you, what are you gonna do? Keep blaming society for your shortcomings

Deny the evil and its source exists and blame the parents, Yep that ones really working.

I'm not blaming 50, it's not his fault he's the product of a society that says you have the right to do anything you want to make money. And to blame soley the parents is the same as blaming the parents of the crackheads not the dealers. They both have a resposibility. We rant and rave about shooting people for ripping us off yet if I right a song about jackin you out of yours and lay it to a funky little beat then I can make millions and blame it on the parents.

To forgive is not a natural instinct. When we forgive and do not seek vengeance we please God, for that is the example he has layed out for us.

Vengeance, no I didn't miss turning the other cheek in bible study, I think you misunderstood me, not me misunderstanding the scripture. Vengeance is not for me and you it is for God only. In the New Testament in Romans it says

Dear friends, never avenge yourselves. Leave that to God. For it is written,“I will take vengeance;I will repay those who deserve it,â€￾says the Lord. and we are instructed to Instead, do what the Scriptures say:“If your enemies are hungry, feed them.If they are thirsty, give them something to drink,
and they will be ashamed of what they have done to you.â€￾ Don’t let evil get the best of you, but conquer evil by doing good.

Sounds like you may be taking some things a bit personal in that you probably are doing a great job with your children, I have no idea and its not for me to say. But there are alot of things working against this generation and like you said when we get sick enough of it we will create a solution. I am sick of it, I don't have any children so I am trying to offer the children in my community better choices and help them take control of their lives. So as I do get sick of it and try to do something I cant help to hear someone telling me sit down and shut up! I don't try to blame anyone for my shortcomings, they have been forgivin. I'm just trying to help someone else avoid those same shortcomings and not become the topic of "death penalty " conversations. and with that I will say when someone is executed, they commited a crime and knew the consequences so they get what they get. Its not like we just go and randomly pick 100 prisoners that were convisted of tax evasion, DUI, B&E and fry 'em. It should be done immediately though and not drug out for years for the lawyers to keep racking up the bills.



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[gkgj72]

 

[USMCBUSA]

the answer is life in prison with 3 things--food /water/basic medical care
no tv--no yard time-no books-not jack but those three things and a concrete room ....for life!
as far as tax dollars go--they are waising your money elswhere too-
in my opinion i would rather die than live in those conditions--if they suicide thats on them.

I couldn't agree with you more. Our society sends people to prison where everything is given to them. They have food, cable tv, a chance to get an education that honest people can't even afford and we pay for it. There was a time when you went to prison you worked for the state. You worked on a chain gang and you grew the food you ate, it wasn't given to you. People say that this is inhumane and there rights are being violated. When you are a criminal I think you sign away your rights when you take someones life and are convicted of the crime. The correction service in our country is to soft and criminals need to be reminded that that are just that. They committed a crime and they are being punished. My father has been to prison and he did have to work everyday and wasn't given the luxury that they are now and trust me he was a changed man and has been for about 15 years now. If you kill someone with malicious intent or premeditation then you do not deserve to live. Why should your life be spaired after you took someone elses.

Mr Brown I love the way you put everything in your post. I think alot of the way a child ends up is in the way they are raised. Alot, not all, parents don't make there children accept any responcibility for what they do. That is why you see kids yelling at their parents in shopping malls. If you don't teach your children responcibiliy and that there is punishment for breaking the "rules" then they are doomed from the start.  

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[BaybeBusa04]

I hate talking about it, I always try to forget.
When I was in jail...it was pretty easy. Cable TV, phones, carpeted room with 3 others (like a dorm room), Soda machine downstairs, you get it?
However...I did work. I worked on the "chain gang" and went up and down back roads and picked up trash.
Then we planted our own garden. I will NEVER look at sweet patatos the same!!
But it was a "privledge" to work. Working gave you a little more trust with the gaurds, it also gave you contact visits.
But I think that was set up backwards. For someone who has no family that can come see them. Why work? Why WANT that? It needs to be manditory.
Also..in the time I was there, a girl was in for drug charges. You would think your last week you would be damn excited to go home. She wasnt. She was scared sh*tless. Before I left, she was back in on the same charges. Why? In my personal opinion there should be more drug education and REHAB in jails. Because we send them "home" we're sending them right back where they started with no more knowledge or self help than when they left.
More needs to be done on that level so that we arent over crowding jails with people who should be in different facilities. Like jail, but a drug rehab jail. KWIM?

 

[Mr Brown]

Deny the evil and its source exists and blame the parents, Yep that ones really working.  

I'm not blaming 50, it's not his fault he's the product of a society that says you have the right to do anything you want to make money.  And to blame soley the parents is the same as  blaming the parents of the crackheads not the dealers.  They both have a resposibility.  We rant and rave about shooting people for ripping us off yet if I right a song about jackin you out of yours and lay it to a funky little beat then I can make millions and blame it on the parents.

To forgive is not a natural instinct.  When we forgive and do not seek vengeance we please God, for that is the example he has layed out for us.

Vengeance, no I didn't miss turning the other cheek in bible study, I think you misunderstood me, not me misunderstanding the scripture.  Vengeance is not for me and you it is for God only.  In the New Testament in Romans it says

Dear friends, never avenge yourselves. Leave that to God. For it is written,“I will take vengeance;I will repay those who deserve it,â€says the Lord. and we are instructed to Instead, do what the Scriptures say:“If your enemies are hungry, feed them.If they are thirsty, give them something to drink,
and they will be ashamed of what they have done to you.†Don’t let evil get the best of you, but conquer evil by doing good.

Sounds like you may be taking some things a bit personal in that you probably are doing a great job with your children, I have no idea and its not for me to say.  But there are alot of things working against this generation and like you said when we get sick enough of it we will create a solution.  I am sick of it, I don't have any children so I am trying to offer the children in my community better choices and help them take control of their lives. So as I do get sick of it and try to do something I cant help to hear someone telling me sit down and shut up!  I don't try to blame anyone for my shortcomings, they have been forgivin.  I'm just trying to help someone else avoid those same shortcomings and not become the topic of "death penalty " conversations.  and with that I will say when someone is executed, they commited a crime and knew the consequences so they get what they get.  Its not like we just go and randomly pick 100 prisoners that were convisted of tax evasion, DUI, B&E and fry 'em.  It should be done immediately though and not drug out for years for the lawyers to keep racking up the bills.

Okay, now you're bringing Christianity into a discussion it has no place in. You cannot argue that evil exists with people that don't beleive in it, so leave that part out. Our society is headed by nominal Christians who spend the lives of others in their quest for riches, so blaming society for 50's attitude is a non-starter. He chooses to do what he does, if I don't listen to it, or allow those for whom I am responsible to listen to it, that's my choice. As I said, if the demand falls off, so will the supply. A crackhead is gonna get high no matter how many dealers you lock up. Solving the underlying problems that cause the crackhead's addiction is the only way to solve the problem. Remove the demand and the supply will take care of itself. If the parents are the reason the crackhead has an addiction, then they are indeed responsible, and nobody else.
You've never seen me rant or rave about shooting someone for ripping me off, harming my family is the only reason I'll shoot a person.
If forgiveness is solely to please God, then how do you explain the millions of non-Christian, non-religious people who are able to forgive? It is a learned behavior perhaps, but it has nothing to do with God.
I am familiar with your quote from Romans, why do you feel the need to focus on the vengance part rather than the rest? Leave the judgement to God.
I'm sure whatever you are doing to help the kids of your community is good, but it should not be contingent on Christianity. The death penalty is directly at odds with christian teachings, so how you can consider yourself a Christian yet advocate killing of ANY kind is incomprehensible.

 

[Mr Brown]

I hate talking about it, I always try to forget.
When I was in jail...it was pretty easy.  Cable TV, phones, carpeted room with 3 others (like a dorm room), Soda machine downstairs, you get it?
However...I did work.  I worked on the "chain gang" and went up and down back roads and picked up trash.
Then we planted our own garden.  I will NEVER look at sweet patatos the same!!
But it was a "privledge" to work.  Working gave you a little more trust with the gaurds, it also gave you contact visits.  
But I think that was set up backwards.  For someone who has no family that can come see them.  Why work?  Why WANT that?  It needs to be manditory.
Also..in the time I was there, a girl was in for drug charges. You would think your last week you would be damn excited to go home.  She wasnt.  She was scared sh*tless.  Before I left, she was back in on the same charges.  Why?  In my personal opinion there should be more drug education and REHAB in jails.  Because we send them "home" we're sending them right back where they started with no more knowledge or self help than when they left.
More needs to be done on that level so that we arent over crowding jails with people who should be in different facilities.  Like jail, but a drug rehab jail.  KWIM?

You must have been in minimum or medium security. Max or Supermax is a whole different ball game. I live close to Marion Federal Pen. Those inmates are locked down 23-1/2 out of 24. The whole place has been on lockdown since the 80's.
I'm not knocking what you went through by any means, but that is not what happens to serious offenders.
I agree the system does nothing to rehab people, it should do exactly that, but it has turned into yet another way for people to make money. There is something wrong with a system that profits from the number of people it punishes......

 

[WWJD]

all this is overly complicated - typical for our justice system AND our current, misdirected, backwards, reducing way of life.

just give everyone a gun. done.

 

[kod3001]

Deny the evil and its source exists and blame the parents, Yep that ones really working.  

I'm not blaming 50, it's not his fault he's the product of a society that says you have the right to do anything you want to make money.  And to blame soley the parents is the same as  blaming the parents of the crackheads not the dealers.  They both have a resposibility.  We rant and rave about shooting people for ripping us off yet if I right a song about jackin you out of yours and lay it to a funky little beat then I can make millions and blame it on the parents.

To forgive is not a natural instinct.  When we forgive and do not seek vengeance we please God, for that is the example he has layed out for us.

Vengeance, no I didn't miss turning the other cheek in bible study, I think you misunderstood me, not me misunderstanding the scripture.  Vengeance is not for me and you it is for God only.  In the New Testament in Romans it says

Dear friends, never avenge yourselves. Leave that to God. For it is written,“I will take vengeance;I will repay those who deserve it,â€says the Lord. and we are instructed to Instead, do what the Scriptures say:“If your enemies are hungry, feed them.If they are thirsty, give them something to drink,
and they will be ashamed of what they have done to you.†Don’t let evil get the best of you, but conquer evil by doing good.

Sounds like you may be taking some things a bit personal in that you probably are doing a great job with your children, I have no idea and its not for me to say.  But there are alot of things working against this generation and like you said when we get sick enough of it we will create a solution.  I am sick of it, I don't have any children so I am trying to offer the children in my community better choices and help them take control of their lives. So as I do get sick of it and try to do something I cant help to hear someone telling me sit down and shut up!  I don't try to blame anyone for my shortcomings, they have been forgivin.  I'm just trying to help someone else avoid those same shortcomings and not become the topic of "death penalty " conversations.  and with that I will say when someone is executed, they commited a crime and knew the consequences so they get what they get.  Its not like we just go and randomly pick 100 prisoners that were convisted of tax evasion, DUI, B&E and fry 'em.  It should be done immediately though and not drug out for years for the lawyers to keep racking up the bills.

Okay, now you're bringing Christianity into a discussion it has no place in. You cannot argue that evil exists with people that don't beleive in it, so leave that part out. Our society is headed by nominal Christians who spend the lives of others in their quest for riches, so blaming society for 50's attitude is a non-starter. He chooses to do what he does, if I don't listen to it, or allow those for whom I am responsible to listen to it, that's my choice. As I said, if the demand falls off, so will the supply. A crackhead is gonna get high no matter how many dealers you lock up. Solving the underlying problems that cause the crackhead's addiction is the only way to solve the problem. Remove the demand and the supply will take care of itself. If the parents are the reason the crackhead has an addiction, then they are indeed responsible, and nobody else.
You've never seen me rant or rave about shooting someone for ripping me off, harming my family is the only reason I'll shoot a person.
If forgiveness is solely to please God, then how do you explain the millions of non-Christian, non-religious people who are able to forgive? It is a learned behavior perhaps, but it has nothing to do with God.
I am familiar with your quote from Romans, why do you feel the need to focus on the vengance part rather than the rest? Leave the judgement to God.
I'm sure whatever you are doing to help the kids of your community is good, but it should not be contingent on Christianity. The death penalty is directly at odds with christian teachings, so how you can consider yourself a Christian yet advocate killing of ANY kind is incomprehensible.

Mr.Brown, I'd like to bring a slightly different angle to this if I may. You mentioned that Christianity has no part in this conversation, I disagree.

You mentioned that we cannot argue that evil exists with people, if they don't believe in it. It brings up the thoughts, of what is right and what is wrong? what is normal, and what isn't? This of course leads to perceptions of what is normal?

You and I, and hopefully everyone on this board for the most part are good, law abiding people (when we're not out on the bike at least). We probably have a similar idea of what normal is.

Good society, good people, good morals leads to good things in theory.

Christianity - Christ teachings - charity, love etc. Religion teaches love, charity, looking out for your neighbour, etc.
Perhaps this makes Christians good people... though of course, you don't need to believe in Christianity, or God to be a good person.

I would hate people to think that I only try to do good because I'm a Christian. I like to think I do good because I'm a nice person.

You've also mentioned that our society is lead by nominal Christians, who spend the lives of others... I agree. Sadly, politicians can be a pack of liars and do what is best for them at the end of the day. Its a wonder that our governments work at all, sadly... bar a revolution there's not an awful lot we can do about it.

 

[Mr Brown]

You mentioned that we cannot argue that evil exists with people, if they don't believe in it. It brings up the thoughts, of what is right and what is wrong? what is normal, and what isn't? This of course leads to perceptions of what is normal?
[/QUOTE]
I meant believe the typical Christian view, that evil stems from a definable source. Perhaps I wasn't clear.
You and I, and hopefully everyone on this board for the most part are good, law abiding people (when we're not out on the bike at least). We probably have a similar idea of what normal is.

Good society, good people, good morals leads to good things in theory.
[/QUOTE]
I agree there, but there are some that are not Christians that subscribe to the same theories.
I would hate people to think that I only try to do good because I'm a Christian. I like to think I do good because I'm a nice person.
[/QUOTE]
Only you truly know why you do good things. Many do good simply because they think someone/thing is watching them and keeping score, not simply because they are good people.
Its a wonder that our governments work at all, sadly[/QUOTE]
That's the whole point behind my death penalty position, it DOESN'T work for all people, so we should not apply an irreversible punishment until it does.

 

[WWJD]

Okay, now you're bringing Christianity into a discussion it has no place in.

BAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAH! IT is EXACTLY what is missing, but so many people are worried that it might make them accountable for themselves, they run the other way or try to reduce that obviousness so it won't be shown in it's true light.... just like right here, right now.

Pretty deep for a blond, Michelle.

Sorry, I HAD to say that, and you know deep down I don't really mean it. ESPECIALLY, after your thoughtful musings in your post! Awesome!

This very post, like most things that makes one scratch their head in life, always drills down to religion or religious beliefs. Always. Think about it. Why does it? Cuz all we do is based on right and wrong "morals" if you will and THOSE are defined in religion. Come to think of it, I do not believe they are defined ANYWHERE else. Parents define it? Where did THEY get it? Oh - religion. Governemnt, laws, social ettiquate - religion, religion, religion, religion , religion. If one chooses to NOT recognize the source, that is fine to live in whatever fantasy world one chooses to conjur up, but that does not negate the fact that the basics are defined in religion. Our whole SOCEIETY is based on it and we can't go back and change that now. We can change history books, but that doesn't change the truth.

It DEFINTELY has a place in this topic. AND it has answers. Answers people are always looking for but just can't seem to find while looking everywhere ELSE. Bummer. Open your heart.

So, how does it fit? Well, when you DRILL DOWN, like is being done, it DOES have to do with society, parenting, respect for life, right and wrong, and moral corruption. How do morals get corrupt? Easy. If you don't WORK at keeping them UNCORRUPt, they get corrupted. Like dropping a wine glass on cement - it's easier to just let go and stop wearing out your hand than to hold on and prevent gravity from doing it's job.... CRASH. Morals shattered, the easiest default. Because we are not doing anything to prevent it. We ALLOW criminals to become famous, we ALLOW tallentless idiots to polute our youth, because we are not stepping up to stop it.

I don't believe the Bible has a specific answer detailed for every question in the universe like many seem to think. Sorry, but you were taught wrong. BUT it does provide the simpliest guidlines for living together on thsi planet, and is just as effective today as it was 2000 years ago. Esop doesn't have a billion believers, Socrates never wrote anything life changing, or memorable, but it's all in the Bible and works even in todays messed up world.

A world that trys to pull it's own religious foundation out from under its self.

That is why "christianity" belongs not just in this discussion but in this world looking blindly for answers it wants to avoid.

I'm not God, I'm not Jesus, I'm just another guy that follows their way, so this is my OPINION and not the opinion of my church or chrsitians or any of that... this is what *I* say:

as far as deterant, weighing the options is simple:

life in prison <> instant death

prison is the OBVIOUS choice of what I would want, there fore Capital Punishment is the way to go because we want to DETER others from beign stupid.... not give them choices.

People would be less likely to commit ANY crime if the societal chosen punishment WAS harsh AND followed up. It is simple.

As far as the innocent falsely condemned? Really? Innocent people die everyday getting hit by a car, poising, suicide whatnot. That's too weak. OBVIOUSLY, the system would do the best they can to weed that out. With the amount of crime dropping considerably, it will be much easier to know exactly who commited it. People would rise up and defend their friends and honor and apprhend criminals on the spot, with witnesses, without fear of litigation or "I don't wanna get involved".

And for the record, EVERYTHING is 'black and white', it's just that WE try and re-color it and we shouldn't have that right.
Of yes, no and 'maybe', only 'maybe' accomplishes nothing.

 

[WWJD]

oh, and the religious way gets people to VALUE human life which also aids this cause

 

[kod3001]

Its good to talk. Interesting thread Michelle.

Now I've gotta go and try and start my bike up. All this cold weather, and I've been working flat out I haven't even had chance to go near it.

The battery is as flat as it'll ever be, and I can't even disarm the alarm, so I'm gonna have to go through the ridiculously annoying long winded piece of crap routine to reset it... one flash turn ignition, 2 flash, 3 flash, 4... oops missed one, start again. Geez.

 

[Mr Brown]

WW, you are making a mistake commonly made by Christians, you are equating Christianity with religion. They are two distinct entities. If you are a Christian, you are religious, but being religious does not make one a Christian. The code of conduct, morals if you will, predates Christianity by a long time. It's not like the Jews were running around like a bunch of idiots before Christ came along. My point was that Christianity has no place in the discussion specifically, not religion in general. You are correct in saying that this decision, like so many others, comes down to moral/religious beliefs, which do indeed coincide with Christianity, but there are plenty of moral people who are non-Christian.

 

[dudewizr]

You say Chritianity has no place in this discussion.

Sorry Mr Brown, I DON'T WANT TO SET ON THE BACK OF THE BUS TODAY!

You obviously have your religious views, world views and opinion of Christianity. And that's great, I respect that. I know I can always get a rise from you by just mentioning Christianity, it's almost prophetic.

You see I can't just simply turn off my Chritianity like a light just as someone else can't stop speaking thier native tongue. Their are days however if I give into my carnal mind I would find it hard to resist temptations of lust, consume alcohol and etc.. So to prevent that I must always wear the full armor of God and not make any concessions to anyones opinions or idealogical thinking. Some people feel their life goal is to question every system that comes along and redefine it to fit their worldview, it makes them feel accomplished. I choose to accept the Holy bible as the Gospel and do the best I can to follow it, some days I fail, that makes me human and not God.

You say Christianity has no place in this discussion.
That's what the schools are saying along with the courts, businesses, retail giants and the government. Again I ask, "why should God bless America?".

 

[Tree]

Religion = Responsible for more deaths than all of the wars combined!!!

The religious books (Bible, Koran Etc.) were created when there were no "real" laws. It gave people a guide line on how to live a tolerant, peacefull, respectable etc. life. Then the killing started. Believe what I believe or die was OK, but it was wrong when the Myans had human sacrifices. That made it OK to slaughter them. (I'm sure that all of Mexico spoke Spanish when the Conquistadors arrived.)

Some people seem to be confusing religion with law.

Now we live in a society of laws that are difficult to enforce. Many LEO's have their hands tied, or are afraid of being sued. It only takes a few bad LEO's to make them all look bad. Then they all pay for the one idiot. Victims have no rights, only the criminals have rights.

 

[dudewizr]

Mr Brown says "It's not like the Jews were running around like a bunch of idiots before Christ came along."

Are you kidding me? Of course they were, oh I guess you missed that in your last Bible study. How many times does the bible say "the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the Lord and served Baal" to th epoint where "the anger of the Lord was hot against them"? Sounds pretty idiotic to me to defy God and do what is displeasing to him. I guess after 3000 years we still don't get it.