Okay, I'm curious...

[VaBusa]

+1 Tree...

While I honestly do respect everyone's views, it's nearly impossible to NOT bring religion in to these types of discussions...it's hard for anyone to NOT bring to the table your emotions, morals, ethics and religious beliefs...

It's truly a wonder we have any laws at all because we are all so different in our views...

 

[dudewizr]

+1 Tree...

While I honestly do respect everyone's views, it's nearly impossible to NOT bring religion in to these types of discussions...it's hard for anyone to NOT bring to the table your emotions, morals, ethics and religious beliefs...

It's truly a wonder we have any laws at all because we are all so different in our views...

I agree.

To get back to the point, and Mr Brown called me out on this one. He said if I agreed with the death penalty then I couldn't consider myself a Christian or something like that.

I think of the Samaritan woman who was taken in adultery and when the leaders of the area presented her to Jesus, they pointed out that Moses gave them a law and the law called for them to stone her to death. They wanted to trip Jesus up by letting him decide. After all if he said let her live then he defied the law, and they would have persecuted him for that, yet if he said stone her then that would go against all of things he taught them about love and compassion. So he though for a minute and said "let he who hath no sin, cast the first stone" and they aloud her to live. I beleive we have to have laws, but their has to be consequences to breaking those laws and if the government chooses death for some of those laws then thats a pretty good deterent for me not to break it. If anyone breaks those specific laws they should be prepared to pay the debt.

However, applying the above scenario that played out 2000 years ago, "let he who hath no sin, cast the first stone" would keep me personally from throwing the switch.

This has been a really good topic.

Cant wait until the next one.

 

[VaBusa]

Not to mislead, but I wish religion wouldn't enter these topics...

I was stating that I see why it does though...just as it's impossible for me to NOT bring my own feelings as a mother an extreme dislike (hatred) for those that harm children, or my anger and hatred for those that kill indiscriminantly for their own pleasure, I know it's impossible for those that live their lives through religion to disassociate themselves from it...

It's something I brought up in the thread about Tookie's death, and I felt as if I were being told that I can't bring those emotions to the table when deciding another person's fate, yet I see that we ALL bring so much to these conversations that are part of our very essence...

And, I have yet to read a viable solution to the question of capital punishment.  Putting a person in a cubicle for the rest of their days, just food and water, shelter would lead to so many OTHER problems for the system.  Talk about housing some p*ssed off people!  I would NOT want a job there...it's just not a feasible solution.  Society has spoiled its criminals...how do you honestly turn back the clocks on something like that?  

It's easy to say we "just do it", but the harsh reality would be another set of problems...

 

[busavas]

Just wanted everyone to know that I am not a religious person. I have two children and don't force them to believe in any "one" religion.

With so many religions out there, how can just "one" of them be correct?

To be fair, I will allow my children to grow up and let them choose whatever religion they want. I'm not going to "brain wash" them into a religion as a child-- that wouldn't be fair.

With that said, I still don't believe in capitol punishment. It is not a deterrent, at least not from the research I did when I wrote the paper.

 

[Mr Brown]

Dudewizer, you are firm in your beliefs, and that is a good thing. You also seem to think you have my ideas on faith, religion, God and Christianity pegged, and you don't. Your post about the stoning says it all. Obviously no one could flip the switch as a Christian, and it would be hypocritical to allow someone else to do it in direct conflict with those beliefs, so Christianity and the death penalty are at odds with each other.
The reason I will call you on your convictions is simply because they border on the fanatic. The Israelites were not running around like savages just because they displeased God by worshiping idols, has nothing to do with the fact that they formed successful governments, social systems and an enduring lineage. You are confusing civilisation with religion, and while they go hand in hand, they are distinct entities.

 

[BaybeBusa04]

<currently researching bible and death penalty>

 

[VaBusa]

Just wanted everyone to know that I am not a religious person. I have two children and don't force them to believe in any "one" religion.

With so many religions out there, how can just "one" of them be correct?

To be fair, I will allow my children to grow up and let them choose whatever religion they want. I'm not going to "brain wash" them into a religion as a child-- that wouldn't be fair.

With that said, I still don't believe in capitol punishment. It is not a deterrent, at least not from the research I did when I wrote the paper.

I'm pretty much the same way...

 I hated having religion shoved down my throat by those around me that to this day are so hypocritical...blah blah blah...I won't do it to my kids...

But, I believe in capital punishment and it's solely based on my own beliefs and feelings toward those that murder...

That had to be an interesting topic to write a paper on and discuss...

<!--EDIT|VaBusa
Reason for Edit: None given...|1134753928 -->

 

[kod3001]

Not to mislead, but I wish religion wouldn't enter these topics...

I was stating that I see why it does though...just as it's impossible for me to NOT bring my own feelings as a mother an extreme dislike (hatred) for those that harm children, or my anger and hatred for those that kill indiscriminantly for their own pleasure, I know it's impossible for those that live their lives through religion to disassociate themselves from it...

It's something I brought up in the thread about Tookie's death, and I felt as if I were being told that I can't bring those emotions to the table when deciding another person's fate, yet I see that we ALL bring so much to these conversations that are part of our very essence...

And, I have yet to read a viable solution to the question of capital punishment.  Putting a person in a cubicle for the rest of their days, just food and water, shelter would lead to so many OTHER problems for the system.  Talk about housing some p*ssed off people!  I would NOT want a job there...it's just not a feasible solution.  Society has spoiled its criminals...how do you honestly turn back the clocks on something like that?  

 It's easy to say we "just do it", but the harsh reality would be another set of problems...

I hear you Michelle. Your feelings (as a mother) to anyone that would hurt children, let alone your children would drive you, or indeed any parent to distraction.

As I've said before, I'm against the death penalty, but if someone hurt/killed one of my children, I'd struggle to leave the shotgun at home if you get my drift. Though, that would be my instinct (and many others instinct) based on the emotion I was feeling at that time.

Its ok to bring people's emotions to the table, but probably unsafe. We couldn't base laws on emotion, we'd be in a terrible state. Laws have to be just, there to protect the innocent and bring justice to a perpetrator.

Hopefully laws are what the people want, and what the people decide - and vote for. Sometimes we may see the law makers in session and think - well that is madness, why would they make a law like that... but I guess we don't know all the facts.

Take a watered down example... have you in a moment of anger wanted to lash out / hit someone? I know I have. Though, a period of time later I will feel different and want to speak to that person rather than get into a fight.

Your last paragraph goes back to the fact that we try to rehabilitate people in prison, to teach them the error of their ways. Perhaps if they're truly sorry they can be let out on parole.

For the utter psychos, they need to stay locked up for ever more. Those that are mentally disturbed and a danger to society.

 

[VaBusa]

Not to mislead, but I wish religion wouldn't enter these topics...

I was stating that I see why it does though...just as it's impossible for me to NOT bring my own feelings as a mother an extreme dislike (hatred) for those that harm children, or my anger and hatred for those that kill indiscriminantly for their own pleasure, I know it's impossible for those that live their lives through religion to disassociate themselves from it...

It's something I brought up in the thread about Tookie's death, and I felt as if I were being told that I can't bring those emotions to the table when deciding another person's fate, yet I see that we ALL bring so much to these conversations that are part of our very essence...

And, I have yet to read a viable solution to the question of capital punishment.  Putting a person in a cubicle for the rest of their days, just food and water, shelter would lead to so many OTHER problems for the system.  Talk about housing some p*ssed off people!  I would NOT want a job there...it's just not a feasible solution.  Society has spoiled its criminals...how do you honestly turn back the clocks on something like that?  

 It's easy to say we "just do it", but the harsh reality would be another set of problems...

I hear you Michelle.  Your feelings (as a mother) to anyone that would hurt children, let alone your children would drive you, or indeed any parent to distraction.

As I've said before, I'm against the death penalty, but if someone hurt/killed one of my children, I'd struggle to leave the shotgun at home if you get my drift.  Though, that would be my instinct (and many others instinct) based on the emotion I was feeling at that time.

Its ok to bring people's emotions to the table, but probably unsafe.  We couldn't base laws on emotion, we'd be in a terrible state.  Laws have to be just, there to protect the innocent and bring justice to a perpetrator.

Hopefully laws are what the people want, and what the people decide - and vote for.  Sometimes we may see the law makers in session and think - well that is madness, why would they make a law like that... but I guess we don't know all the facts.

Take a watered down example...  have you in a moment of anger wanted to lash out / hit someone?  I know I have.  Though, a period of time later I will feel different and want to speak to that person rather than get into a fight.

Your last paragraph goes back to the fact that we try to rehabilitate people in prison, to teach them the error of their ways.  Perhaps if they're truly sorry they can be let out on parole.

For the utter psychos, they need to stay locked up for ever more.  Those that are mentally disturbed and a danger to society.

I know I talk a lot of children with regards to this topic, but believe me, knowing that in this day and age, people find it okay to drag a man to his death down a road, to enter someone's home for the sole thrill of a hunt and murder an entire family or shoot someone for their car get equal time in my book...they too should die, and I wish it would be an equally horrific death.  Perhaps then, it WOULD be the deterrent it was intended to be...therein lies the flaw...the "deterrent" is a joke at this point.  It is indeed no deterrent at all with years upon years of appeals and hi-priced lawyers, red tape and Hollywood sticking their nose in at the eleventh hour...but, it could be...brings up tons of ethical questions, morality, human rights, who's gonna pull the trigger, push the button, etc?

I don't see how you can make anyone NOT bring their emotions and beliefs to the table when discussing subjects like this? It's an impossibility IMO...

To touch on your point of rehabilitation - so many psychos are sitting in mental institutions and prisons right now, fully aware of their crimes, yet knew to plead "insanity" and hence they're a case study for the rest of their lives.  They avoid the death penalty by doing what the system has taught them they can do. Many willingly ADMIT they'd kill again and again if given the chance, no matter how much we try to rehabilitate them.  "They can't help themselves" is what we often hear.  What happens if these individuals DO get out?  Kill again and again?  Slip through the cracks?  It's happened due to a series of flaws in the system and in the end, more innocent lives are lost because that person was unleased on society...IMHO, if they'd been "taken care of" a long time ago, their horrific story ends...

 

[VaBusa]

...and I wish in a perfect world, where someone was truly sorry for their crimes, truly asked for forgiveness from victims' families for murder they'd committed, that it would "feel" like enough...then I think of those victims and wonder what price a life is for someone to realize how to be a contributing part of society? Doesn't seem like a fair trade-of to me at all...but, that's my $.85 worth

Man, I'm tired of typing!

 

[kod3001]

What we need are some actuarials on the board, are there any?

The insurance company I am contracted to (to look after their network) run a complex set of servers, given a set of variables will calculate what will happen over a period of time... such as, what would happen if interest rates went up 3%? what would happen if terrorists struck a certain area... that sort of stuff - what affect would it have on everything else.

It would be interesting to setup a test country, and test out all our theories... based on how we create laws, how we set up the tax system, government etc etc and whether the country would work or implode after a period of time.

I agree with you more than you know - the risk of psychos slipping through the cracks, yes it is a risk, just as much a risk is of killing the wrong person, I'm sure its probably happened. How can we build a fault proof system?

We probably can't as our society has got so complex. I wonder what the future holds? probably more of the same.

 

[VaBusa]

I wonder what the future holds?  probably more of the same.

A bunch of hot air?!

That's about all I'm doing here...

 

[kod3001]

done this one to death now I guess (figuratively speaking)

 

[WWJD]

I'm a christian and I'd pull the switch. Not that I would enjoy it personally and I am against killing, but I would step up with a spine to set the pace. None of this fence straddling, politically correct crap. Just get on with it. ZZZZZT! NEXT! You play, you pay - simple, concise, complete, effective. How can people say it WON'T deter if it's not currently in use full steam? How could it NOT work? Based on a couple of trials in small markets not being as effective as someone hopes, does NOT mean it wouldn't work on a nationwide level.

christianity and religion ARE interchangable however you see fit. If you choose to seperate them and define them with deep specifications, then you are trying to make too big of an issue out of generalizations to detract from the primary focus... like saying, "What did you mean when you wrote 'and' ??"

 

[busavas]

....

That had to be an interesting topic to write a paper on and discuss...

It was very interesting, especially when researching the testimonials -- it was amazing to see that a greater pecentage of the victims' families were more interested in life in prison rather than capital punishment.

 

[VaBusa]

....

That had to be an interesting topic to write a paper on and discuss...

It was very interesting, especially when researching the testimonials -- it was amazing to see that a greater pecentage of the victims' families were more interested in life in prison rather than capital punishment.

I could see where they might want to KNOW he/she is spending the rest of their life in prison...always reminded of why they're there...

I'd say it takes a very strong person to say "let 'em live"...I'll admit, I don't have that in me...I would hate that the murderer can live and breathe at all when they snuffed the life of a loved one...

 

[VaBusa]

I'm a christian and I'd pull the switch.  Not that I would enjoy it personally and I am against killing, but I would step up with a spine to set the pace.  None of this fence straddling, politically correct crap.  Just get on with it.  ZZZZZT!  NEXT!  You play, you pay - simple, concise, complete, effective.  How can people say it WON'T deter if it's not currently in use full steam?  How could it NOT work?  Based on a couple of trials in small markets not being as effective as someone hopes, does NOT mean it wouldn't work on a nationwide level.

Exactly...that's when the deterrent would indeed work...at least that's what I believe...

 

[dudewizr]

Hey what about this, when someone is executed the vicyims family is allowed to witness the execution, right? What if you give the family the switch and leave the decision up to them. When the day arrives for execution, from that day on the family determines your fate every day from that day on.

It might play out like this:
Psycho Bob is scheduled to be executed for killing my family member on 1-1-2006. Everbody shows up for my decision, I decide I'm in a good mood and want to start the new year off right so I choose not to throw the switch. The execution decision remains mine from that point on. 3 months later my boss gets in my face, I get fired and my wife leaves, ok drag out Psycho Bob and strap him up. I get there have my hand on the switch and as I look him in the eyes I say "nope not today". A month and a half later it's my lost loved ones birthday, you got it, bring in Psycho Bob........again "not today" 3 months later, the anniversary of his heinous crime. Bobs gotta be thinking this has got to be the day...Wrong again. i wait about 2 years playing this game and one day I hit the lottery and guess what......SEE YA PSYCHO BOB.

You could even write it into your will in th event if you died to detemine his fate once and for all. You could even select a beneficiary as to who gets to pull the switch or raffle off the chance, with the proceeds going back to the state to recoup expenses.

Let all of their accomodations (luxury foods, t.v, rec time, etc.) set soley on the decisions of the survivors.

Now that just might work. Oh yeah I forgot the ACLU would claim cruel and unusual punishment. Shucks.

Now that's a good topic, what would you do with the ACLU?

 

[VaBusa]

That's pretty sadistic dudewizr!

And coming from you?

I kind of like it...sounds like a good plot for a movie...

But honestly, it would NEVER fly...

 

[dudewizr]

That's pretty sadistic dudewizr!  

 And coming from you?

I kind of like it...sounds like a good plot for a movie...

But honestly, it would NEVER fly...

See, now aren't you glad I try my best to live a good Christian life!