Russia and Ukraine

[Blanca BusaLess]

I'll be honest here. That's an ignorant position. It ignores history, it ignores that Republicans are the factual debt kings, and it ignores the fact that the "beaming America" you talk about was built on spreading and maintaining peace around the world.

Your idea of spreading peace is my idea of constantly meddling in the business of sovereign nations. Iraq is so much better off now after we helped them right? Afghanistan is so much better after our twenty years there right? We totally made a difference in Vietnam too right? Of all the conflicts we’ve been involved in only a few were worthy. The rest were due to imperial greed and lack of care for the innocents in the middle.
No my position is quite right. We should not send a single dollar to anyone anywhere outside our borders until after we’ve made sure that dollar isn’t needed here. We do not have to be the world police. We can be frightfully strong and independent. Others can know not to F with us.
But it’s ok. I understand. You’re a democrat and it’s your way to give other people’s money away.

 

[Bumblebee]

Your idea of spreading peace is my idea of constantly meddling in the business of sovereign nations. Iraq is so much better off now after we helped them right? Afghanistan is so much better after our twenty years there right? We totally made a difference in Vietnam too right? Of all the conflicts we’ve been involved in only a few were worthy. The rest were due to imperial greed and lack of care for the innocents in the middle.
No my position is quite right. We should not send a single dollar to anyone anywhere outside our borders until after we’ve made sure that dollar isn’t needed here. We do not have to be the world police. We can be frightfully strong and independent. Others can know not to F with us.
But it’s ok. I understand. You’re a democrat and it’s your way to give other people’s money away.

If we look at our modern governments, none of them are true democracies....

Citizens don't get a say on anything that happens in our countries, we can protest or go to our representatives but that falls on deaf ears....and here in Canada lots of backdoor deals are done with zero transparency....many international initiatives are funded by our taxpayer money which have zero benefit to the Canadian taxpayer whatsoever.

When it comes to funding certain high cost activities using taxpayer money, this should be all put to a national referendum and if the majority of citizens say no, then it is no.....the government could even have different options to be presented..

Would this ever be a reality.....never....

That all being said, there would be times when the government can't await results from such a process and would have to act promptly and that is expected but if billions of taxpayer money is to be sent off shore to fund a proxy war, the people should have a say...

Meanwhile people can't find affordable housing or healthcare...people have died in ERs awaiting service here in Canada because they needed emergency care yet didn't get it and we've had ERs close due to lack of staff.....

Not cool.....

 

[mark3evo]

In most pre-conflicts the people lived in harmony until they didn't...

Russia had no business invading like they did and if the world sat back and watch NATO would lose all it's credibility and teeth...once that happens the bad actor states will prevail and rule.

As we have learned from all the wars ever fought previously, just making a new border and moving on is never an option....blood has to be shed.....

playing devils advocate , what would the response of USA be if Canada joined the warsaw pact , a hostile agent on the US door step

see NATO pushing on right up to the Soviet bear, US hawks love to see Russia remain weak - when China is the big risk
Putin was goaded, this could have been stopped

i won't mention again the coup which deposed Ukraine Pro Russian democratically elected President back in 2014

which caused Putin to go in a and take Crimea 95% Russian speakers

 

[Bumblebee]

playing devils advocate , what would the response of USA be if Canada joined the warsaw pact , a hostile agent on the US door step

see NATO pushing on right up to the Soviet bear, US hawks love to see Russia remain weak - when China is the big risk
Putin was goaded, this could have been stopped

i won't mention again the coup which deposed Ukraine Pro Russian democratically elected President back in 2014

which caused Putin to go in a and take Crimea 95% Russian speakers

If Canada ever tried to join the defunct Warsaw pact, I'm sure the US would have lots to say and we'd be sanctioned to death which would collapse our economy...

That's how the powers to be try to control the actions of rogue countries-they sanction the begeezus out of them in hopes they come around....

What generally happens is some other rogue state jumps in and circumvents the sanctions.......

Russia saw themselves as liberators going into Ukraine....little did they know they weren't perceived as liberators...but rather invaders.

We've seen the US enter into conflicts with countries which had other powers supplying them with arms, training and guidance....Korea, Viet Nam, Iraq, Syria, etc.....

In reality this is the same but different players...instead of Russia and China helping out the North Vietnamese or the Chinese helping out the North Koreans, it's NATO helping out the Ukrainians....

Tit for Tat....

 

[mark3evo]

If Canada ever tried to join the defunct Warsaw pact, I'm sure the US would have lots to say and we'd be sanctioned to death which would collapse our economy...

That's how the powers to be try to control the actions of rogue countries-they sanction the begeezus out of them in hopes they come around....

What generally happens is some other rogue state jumps in and circumvents the sanctions.......

Russia saw themselves as liberators going into Ukraine....little did they know they weren't perceived as liberators...but rather invaders.

We've seen the US enter into conflicts with countries which had other powers supplying them with arms, training and guidance....Korea, Viet Nam, Iraq, Syria, etc.....

In reality this is the same but different players...instead of Russia and China helping out the North Vietnamese or the Chinese helping out the North Koreans, it's NATO helping out the Ukrainians....

Tit for Tat....

funny how the sanctions have not worked - Russia sold more oil in '23 than before the war

meanwhile more and more Ukraine and Russian lives lie cold in the clay

 

[Bumblebee]

funny how the sanctions have not worked - Russia sold more oil in '23 than before the war

meanwhile more and more Ukraine and Russian lives lie cold in the clay

As long as the rogue states are able to band together, sanctions won't work...

That and there is a historical relationship and need for Russian oil that is hard to just shut off.

It's a real challenge when commerce has become global and can be disrupted so easily...

 

[michael parris heuberger]

As long as the rogue states are able to band together, sanctions won't work...

That and there is a historical relationship and need for Russian oil that is hard to just shut off.

It's a real challenge when commerce has become global and can be disrupted so easily...

Hi. I also think yhat the USA has not been in it to win in a long time lets say WW2.

 

[fallenarch]

Your idea of spreading peace is my idea of constantly meddling in the business of sovereign nations. Iraq is so much better off now after we helped them right? Afghanistan is so much better after our twenty years there right? We totally made a difference in Vietnam too right? Of all the conflicts we’ve been involved in only a few were worthy. The rest were due to imperial greed and lack of care for the innocents in the middle.
No my position is quite right. We should not send a single dollar to anyone anywhere outside our borders until after we’ve made sure that dollar isn’t needed here. We do not have to be the world police. We can be frightfully strong and independent. Others can know not to F with us.
But it’s ok. I understand. You’re a democrat and it’s your way to give other people’s money away.

Well, I should have written "peace", not peace. I think people who think like you don't realize meddling in countries all over the world is why we have all the advantages we have in this country. Not saying it's right, not even claiming it's moral. Just claiming it's necessary.

 

[Bumblebee]

Hi. I also think yhat the USA has not been in it to win in a long time lets say WW2.

A big difference in today's conflict and WW2 is the world was focused in winning and there were no sanctuary countries where the Germans could go, rebuild and rearm and then come out swinging knowing that while they were in sanctuary nobody could touch them....

Afghanistan was the same kind of scenario as Viet Nam.....the Taliban could slip across to Pakistan to rebuild and rearm and launch attacks across the border.....we knew they were there, we had eyes on but there was lots of traffic back and forth and we weren't allowed to go into Pakistan or risk war with them..

We cut off the ability of the Pakistan Taliban from coming into Afghanistan and they stayed there until NATO pulled out leaving the ANA to do their job of patrolling and defending Afghanistan.....once they collapsed, all bets were off and the Taliban were free to come across the border and basically walk right in with no opposition.....

Pretty much the same as the NVA and Viet Cong except the US government tied the hands of the US military and the NVA and Vet Cong were allowed to mass in Laos and Cambodia to a large force reinforced by China and Russia.

You weren't allowed to win the Viet Nam war or it would have escalated into a very large perhaps global war......the US sacrificed it's stance in the world to stop this from happening.

 

[michael parris heuberger]

A big difference in today's conflict and WW2 is the world was focused in winning and there were no sanctuary countries where the Germans could go, rebuild and rearm and then come out swinging knowing that while they were in sanctuary nobody could touch them....

Afghanistan was the same kind of scenario as Viet Nam.....the Taliban could slip across to Pakistan to rebuild and rearm and launch attacks across the border.....we knew they were there, we had eyes on but there was lots of traffic back and forth and we weren't allowed to go into Pakistan or risk war with them..

We cut off the ability of the Pakistan Taliban from coming into Afghanistan and they stayed there until NATO pulled out leaving the ANA to do their job of patrolling and defending Afghanistan.....once they collapsed, all bets were off and the Taliban were free to come across the border and basically walk right in with no opposition.....

Pretty much the same as the NVA and Viet Cong except the US government tied the hands of the US military and the NVA and Vet Cong were allowed to mass in Laos and Cambodia to a large force reinforced by China and Russia.

You weren't allowed to win the Viet Nam war or it would have escalated into a very large perhaps global war......the US sacrificed it's stance in the world to stop this from happening.

Hi. Back in WW2 what do you think the USA would have done to any countries that the Germans sanctuary?

 

[Bumblebee]

Hi. Back in WW2 what do you think the USA would have done to any countries that the Germans sanctuary?

As the USA was part of an Allied alliance it's hard to say.....there was a neutral country (Switzerland) where some Nazis retreated to and were not able to be hunted down by allied forces.

And to add to this, the Germans were convinced they were superior in every way so they wouldn't use a sanctuary if they had one.

 

[Blanca BusaLess]

Well, I should have written "peace", not peace. I think people who think like you don't realize meddling in countries all over the world is why we have all the advantages we have in this country. Not saying it's right, not even claiming it's moral. Just claiming it's necessary.

Do you honestly believe Iraq and Afghanistan are better off after our ‘peace’ efforts? To this day I know Iraqis who say life was better under Saddam. We obliterated everything in those countries. And nobody is rushing to rebuild them.
Roads, bridges, buildings, power stations and all else bombed to oblivion for 20yrs. Countries are in rubble.
They would have been better off had we never gone in and our life would be no different. Might actually be better if we had our trillions back and all the lives lost there for nothing imo.

 

[Blanca BusaLess]

Wow!
Bradley to the rescue!

Incredible moment US Bradley destroys three Russian fighting vehicles

An incredible clip shared by Ukraine's 109th Separate Territorial Defence Brigade showed how the expertly piloted Bradley saved a troop of Kyiv 's soldiers from certain death

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Bumblebee]

Do you honestly believe Iraq and Afghanistan are better off after our ‘peace’ efforts? To this day I know Iraqis who say life was better under Saddam. We obliterated everything in those countries. And nobody is rushing to rebuild them.
Roads, bridges, buildings, power stations and all else bombed to oblivion for 20yrs. Countries are in rubble.
They would have been better off had we never gone in and our life would be no different. Might actually be better if we had our trillions back and all the lives lost there for nothing imo.

For sure....there was no reason to go into Iraq.....other than oil (in my opinion).

When I was there life was a struggle for citizens and they have learned to hate the west for causing this.....

IF they ever get back on their feet, we can mark off another enemy of the west....

Afghanistan was one of those red herrings where the Taliban had a sanctuary to hide and then pop out once the US inserted government failed....

The western trained ANA/ANP also collapsed and it was sad that all the ANA special forces were killed in battle once they ran out of ammo.....most of them were really decent guys....

 

[mark3evo]

As the USA was part of an Allied alliance it's hard to say.....there was a neutral country (Switzerland) where some Nazis retreated to and were not able to be hunted down by allied forces.

And to add to this, the Germans were convinced they were superior in every way so they wouldn't use a sanctuary if they had one.

Quite a few Nazis made tracks to Argentina.
US also repatriated some 1000 or so Rocket engineers many were Nazis - this led to US advancing their Rocket designs from NOTHING to man on the moon

 

[Bumblebee]

Quite a few Nazis made tracks to Argentina.
US also repatriated some 1000 or so Rocket engineers many were Nazis - this led to US advancing their Rocket designs from NOTHING to man on the moon

The crazy thing is there are buildings and streets named after some of these ex-Nazis.......

Of course having a sanctuary is different than fleeing to another country half way around the world...

 

[Blanca BusaLess]

For sure....there was no reason to go into Iraq.....other than oil (in my opinion).

When I was there life was a struggle for citizens and they have learned to hate the west for causing this.....

IF they ever get back on their feet, we can mark off another enemy of the west....

Afghanistan was one of those red herrings where the Taliban had a sanctuary to hide and then pop out once the US inserted government failed....

The western trained ANA/ANP also collapsed and it was sad that all the ANA special forces were killed in battle once they ran out of ammo.....most of them were really decent guys....

I’m still of the opinion both would be better off had we not ever gone.
There would be a lot more whole families and no dead troops from that wasted effort. Our govt knew full well we could never install western democracy in both yet plundered on. Waste of blood and treasure.

The one country we should have gone to probably would have lit the world on fire if we did. And that is the KSA. That’s where they came from. That’s where we should have gone.

 

[fallenarch]

Do you honestly believe Iraq and Afghanistan are better off after our ‘peace’ efforts? To this day I know Iraqis who say life was better under Saddam. We obliterated everything in those countries. And nobody is rushing to rebuild them.
Roads, bridges, buildings, power stations and all else bombed to oblivion for 20yrs. Countries are in rubble.
They would have been better off had we never gone in and our life would be no different. Might actually be better if we had our trillions back and all the lives lost there for nothing imo.

I didn't say they were better off; we are. When there is a war, who do you think we buy all those weapons from? That's correct, American companies. Keeping the peace is highly profitable.

 

[Blanca BusaLess]

I didn't say they were better off; we are. When there is a war, who do you think we buy all those weapons from? That's correct, American companies. Keeping the peace is highly profitable.

Profitable yes. But I’d bet there are a lot of broken families who’d rather have their siblings or spouses back instead. It wasn’t a righteous cause. Sure ‘they’ made a ton of money. I even made some. Not much but we did several contracts for the US govt in Iraq and Afg. But it wasn’t worth it to me.

 

[fallenarch]

Profitable yes. But I’d bet there are a lot of broken families who’d rather have their siblings or spouses back instead. It wasn’t a righteous cause. Sure ‘they’ made a ton of money. I even made some. Not much but we did several contracts for the US govt in Iraq and Afg. But it wasn’t worth it to me.

Did you give the money back? Send it to a VET charity? If not then you see my point. I'm not justifying the way it is, just reporting it.