Single topic debate #2

Man this is exactly why these threads are just no good. This thread does no good to help out hayabusa.org. People are getting upset and there was no reason for it. Believe what u believe but if u understand the human body and how it works and has everything it needs to survive its hard to think that came from dust. A baby can live in water in the womb but not drowned and then the min it is born it can now die if put under water. Cmon thats for a Big bang no its from someone alot smarter then us. The liver,kidneys,eyes,sexual organs,heart all came from evolutuion haha yea right. Dont worry about asking me any ? im done with this post.One more thing for the non believers that wants proof its called Faith. You cant have it easy all the time like alot of people want today,Give me Give me Give me. Take care rubber down Wedge.



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Wedgester= Quack#3

Seriously though man, nobody is upset, you have to read each post thoroughly before coming to that conclusion. It is all in good fun and it seems that you may be the one a little bothered by it all.
Chill and settle in for the ride if you are interested. I think that a little jokularity is allowed here because that is the nonsense that we toss at each other when we disagree.
Oh by the way, you are a clown.....
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I always get upset by the big bad internet bullies who refuse to listen to me!! If anybody is up set they better not let their mom catch them on her computer anyway so get back to your cartoons.
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And science will explain everything in due time, we have only had the tools and understanding for about 100 years to actually prove the theories of the past generations, and really only got the best equipment in the last 40 years.

So thinking along those lines what has happened to us, how did we suddenly get so smart? Go back 5000 years and look how we lived, then come forward 2500 years and you wont see much change. Go forward 2000 more years and we are not much better off either, but then we slowly progress for the next 400 years but still nothing real special. Now look at our world in 1900 as compared to 2000, holy shid!!!! What happened, we went from riding horses and steam engines to Busa's and rocket ships in only 100 years!!! How is it that modern man managed to accomplish so much so fast when in the past 5000 years technology was stagnet??

Now thats something to really think about!
 
now map the advancement of technology and "Me"ism with the decline of family, community, respect, human worth, purpose and happiness. I bet there is no million dollar government study on that
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Some people can argue that family, community etc as apparently not worth all that much, since it is phasing itself out, but those that HAVE it now, understand it's importance, and weep for it's loss



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Yes, even science can evolve...oftentimes, it evolves with man's ability to use a particular tool, i.e. we used to lock up guys for rape without really knowing if indeed it was that guy, but now with DNA testing we can be sure we've got the right guy...

And, unfortunately, it depends on the desired effect the scientist wants...aside from concrete things like DNA testing, nearly everything in life can be twisted, misconstrued and misused to meet a particular mind set...religion included...

It's an unfortunate side effect of human thinking, yet a very necessary "evil" for lack of a better term...without the ability to twist things to our liking, we wouldn't think we know a whole lot LOL  Do you not think for an instant that someone decifering the Bible didn't twist something to better suit his religion at that time?  Just a question; I'm not flaming here...
A little note on the historical translations.

The Dead Sea Scrolls- During 1947, in a series of caves near the Dead Sea, a discovery was made that would soon excite the entire religious world. These were the Dead Sea scrolls. Dr. William F Albright states that this find was "the most important discovery ever made concerning the Old Testament manuscripts." These scrolls were probably hidden there during the second century B.C. by a Jewish group called the Essenes. They included fragments of every Old Testament Book in the Hebrew Bible with the exception of the Book of Esther.
Especially exciting was a complete scroll on the Book of Isaiah. th reason this discovery was so important was that until this event, the earliest copy we had of Isaiah's writings were made during the twelfth century A.D. Now scholars couls move back over a thousand years closer to the time when the prophet actually wrote (around 700 B.C.). When a comparison was made between the Dead Sea copy of the twelfth century A.D. copy, they were both found to be almost identical, there once again reassuring us that our copy of God's Word today is indeed accurate and reliable!
 
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All those feelings of love & affection, anger & hate, happiness & sadness, pain & excitement... Surely you would agree, science could never say those are traits of evolution? What's your gut feeling? Ever feel like there's something missing in your life and what do you think it is? Just some food for thought.
 
All those feelings of love & affection, anger & hate, happiness & sadness, pain & excitement...   Surely you would agree, science could never say those are traits of evolution?  What's your gut feeling?  Ever feel like there's something missing in your life and what do you think it is?  Just some food for thought.
I answered that on page 4:

And love is a survival mechanisim just like fight or flight, if you love a person it makes a strong bond to care for them and protect them which is in line with part 1 and 2 for the meaning of life. If you think about most things we do they fall in line with those 2 things, if not then they cause death.

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I answered that on page 4:

And love is a survival mechanisim just like fight or flight, if you love a person it makes a strong bond to care for them and protect them which is in line with part 1 and 2 for the meaning of life. If you think about most things we do they fall in line with those 2 things, if not then they cause death.

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Yes, but wouldn't you agree those are reactions? I know you don't want to go into the 'how' part of it, but it should be an important part of the topic since I think that is where the big disconnect between opinions is. Science takes the time to explain the reactions/events, but God is in the details.
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Yes, but wouldn't you agree those are reactions?  I know you don't want to go into the 'how' part of it, but it should be an important part of the topic since I think that is where the big disconnect between opinions is.  Science takes the time to explain the reactions/events, but God is in the details.  
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no I wouldnt agree (go figure) they are the how, love is not a reaction it's a reason that causes the reaction.
 
All those feelings of love & affection, anger & hate, happiness & sadness, pain & excitement...   Surely you would agree, science could never say those are traits of evolution?  What's your gut feeling?  Ever feel like there's something missing in your life and what do you think it is?  Just some food for thought.
I answered that on page 4:

And love is a survival mechanisim just like fight or flight, if you love a person it makes a strong bond to care for them and protect them which is in line with part 1 and 2 for the meaning of life. If you think about most things we do they fall in line with those 2 things, if not then they cause death.

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I just don't recall the last time said or heard anyone else say, "Man if it weren't for the love I have I would have died". How do you qualify love as a survival mechanism. There should be a good scientific explanation of it but I have yet to hear it.

What is the physical or psychologocal explanation of someone that is kind to someone that has just wronged them and they show them forgiveness.

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All those feelings of love & affection, anger & hate, happiness & sadness, pain & excitement...   Surely you would agree, science could never say those are traits of evolution?  What's your gut feeling?  Ever feel like there's something missing in your life and what do you think it is?  Just some food for thought.
I answered that on page 4:

And love is a survival mechanisim just like fight or flight, if you love a person it makes a strong bond to care for them and protect them which is in line with part 1 and 2 for the meaning of life. If you think about most things we do they fall in line with those 2 things, if not then they cause death.

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I just don't recall the last time said or heard anyone else say, "Man if it weren't for the love I have I would have died".  How do you qualify love as a survival mechanism.  There should be a good scientific explanation of it but I have yet to hear it.

What is the physical or psychologocal explanation of someone that is kind to someone that has just wronged them and they show them forgiveness.
love is for species survival, would you give you life so that your kids could live? Now if there was no love in it and you didnt care like many other animals do, you would let your kids just die if you needed to. Thats why other species have large numbers of offspring, they dont have love to force them to care for them as well as we do. Seems clear how it works to me.

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you know I was just thinking, I've watched this board for awhile now, and everyone (I think) thats to the evolutionist side, has sent prayers and such to other people when something bad has happened, if thats the case why the hell would you send prayers if you do not believe? answer that why don't ya'll
 
you know I was just thinking,  I've watched this board for awhile now,  and everyone (I think) thats to the evolutionist side, has sent prayers and such to other people when something bad has happened,  if thats the case why the hell would you send prayers if you do not believe?     answer that why don't ya'll
it's like christmas presents, it's the thought that counts.

They are our friends and we want to help them anyway we can, so wishing them well in anyform may help them to feel better.
 
and by the way how come none of you dared to go into this one,  Oh I know cause You are wrong and don't want to let it be KNOWN
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Best arguments against evolution?
Evolutionists do not have solid support from science when they say everything has “evolvedâ€￾.

In fact, evolutionists who reject God and miracles have three of the biggest problems in the universe.

Problem No. 1
There is no scientific law that allows something to evolve from nothing. If there was nothing in the universe to begin with, obviously nothing could happen to cause anything to appear.


Evolutionists often try to duck this problem by saying that evolution is not concerned with the origin of life, only how life progressed after it appeared. But if you can't get something from nothing, it's pointless thinking you can accurately explain the next step. Juggle the figures any way you like, but without a Creator you are not going to get anything, let alone everything.

Problem No. 2
No scientific law can account for non-living things’ coming to life. The soil in your garden didn't turn into the trees and flowers. They came from seeds, cuttings, or grafts from other trees and flowers.


Atheistic evolutionists have long believed that at some time in the distant past, life arose from non-living substances. British biologist T.H. Huxley in 1869 and physicist John Tyndall in 1874 were early promoters of the idea that life could be generated from inorganic chemicals. But biology has found no law to support this idea, and much against it. The invariable observation is that only living things give rise to other living things. Life could not begin if God and miracles took no part!

Problem No. 3
There is no known scientific law that would allow one kind of creature to turn naturally into a completely different kind. Insects don't evolve into more complex non-insects for instance, because they don't have the genes to do it.


The theory of evolution teaches that simple life-forms evolved into more complex life-forms, such as fish, amphibians, reptiles, birds, and mammals. There is no natural law known that could allow this to happen. The best that evolutionists can come up with to try to explain how this might have happened is to propose that it happened by mutations and natural selection.

But mutations overwhelmingly destroy genetic information and produce creatures more handicapped than the parents. (See our article on TNR, the Totally Naked Rooster.) And natural selection simply weeds out unfit creatures. Natural selection may explain why light-colored moths in England decreased and dark moths proliferated (because during the industrial revolution the light moths on dark tree trunks were more easily seen and eaten by birds), but it cannot show that moths could ever turn into effective, totally different, non-moth creatures. Moths do not have the genetic information to evolve into something that is not a moth, no matter how much time you give them.

All the evidence is on the side of the Christian who believes the Bible's account of creation — that in the beginning God created the world and all the major types of creatures to reproduce “after their kindâ€￾.



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ok fine since you dont want to go read.

Permission is granted to copy and print these pages in total for non-profit personal, educational, research, or critical purposes.


Introduction
volution, the overarching concept that unifies the biological sciences, in fact embraces a plurality of theories and hypotheses. In evolutionary debates one is apt to hear evolution roughly parceled between the terms "microevolution" and "macroevolution". Microevolution, or change beneath the species level, may be thought of as relatively small scale change in the functional and genetic constituencies of populations of organisms. That this occurs and has been observed is generally undisputed by critics of evolution. What is vigorously challenged, however, is macroevolution. Macroevolution is evolution on the "grand scale" resulting in the origin of higher taxa. In evolutionary theory it thus entails common ancestry, descent with modification, speciation, the genealogical relatedness of all life, transformation of species, and large scale functional and structural changes of populations through time, all at or above the species level (Freeman and Herron 2004; Futuyma 1998; Ridley 1993).

Common descent is a general descriptive theory that concerns the genetic origins of living organisms (though not the ultimate origin of life). The theory specifically postulates that all of the earth's known biota are genealogically related, much in the same way that siblings or cousins are related to one another. Thus, macroevolutionary history and processes necessarily entail the transformation of one species into another and, consequently, the origin of higher taxa. Because it is so well supported scientifically, common descent is often called the "fact of evolution" by biologists. For these reasons, proponents of special creation are especially hostile to the macroevolutionary foundation of the biological sciences.

This article directly addresses the scientific evidence in favor of common descent and macroevolution. This article is specifically intended for those who are scientifically minded but, for one reason or another, have come to believe that macroevolutionary theory explains little, makes few or no testable predictions, is unfalsifiable, or has not been scientifically demonstrated.

Outline
Introduction

Universal Common Descent Defined
Evidence for Common Descent is Independent of Mechanism
What Counts as Scientific Evidence
Other Explanations for the Biology
How to Cite This Document
Scientific Evidence and the Scientific Method

Phylogenetics introduction

Figure 1: A consensus universal phylogeny
Cladistics and phylogenetic reconstruction
Maximum parsimony
Maximum likelihood
Distance matrix methods
Statistical support for phylogenies
Does phylogenetic inference find correct trees?
Caveats with determining phylogenetic trees
Part I. A unique, historical phylogenetic tree

Unity of life
Nested hierarchies
Convergence of independent phylogenies
Statistics of incongruent phylogenies
Transitional forms
Reptile-birds
Reptile-mammals
Ape-humans
Legged whales
Legged seacows
Chronology of common ancestors
Part 2. Past history

Anatomical vestiges
Atavisms
Whales with hindlimbs
Humans tails
Molecular vestiges
Ontogeny and developmental biology
Mammalian ear bones, reptilian jaws
Pharyngeal pouches, branchial arches
Snake embryos with legs
Embryonic human tail
Marsupial eggshell and caruncle
Present biogeography
Past biogeography
Marsupials
Horses
Apes and humans

Part 3. Evolutionary opportunism

Anatomical parahomology
Molecular parahomology
Anatomical convergence
Molecular convergence
Anatomical suboptimal function
Molecular suboptimal function
Part 4. Molecular evidence

Protein functional redundancy
DNA functional redundancy
Transposons
Redundant pseudogenes
Endogenous retroviruses
Part 5. Change

Genetic
Morphological
Functional
The strange past
Stages of speciation
Speciation events
Morphological rates
Genetic rates
Closing remarks


Other Links:
A Critique of Douglas Theobald's "29 Evidences for Macroevolution"
Lawyer, Churches of Christ minister, and young-earth creationist Ashby Camp argues that the evidence is insufficient to establish that all organisms share the same biological ancestor.
Theobald Responds to Ashby Camp's "Critique"
The author of this essay has written a response to Camp.
Search this FAQ

What is Universal Common Descent?
niversal common descent is the hypothesis that all living, terrestrial organisms are genealogically related. All existing species originated gradually by biological, reproductive processes on a geological timescale. Modern organisms are the genetic descendants of one original species or communal gene pool. Genetical "gradualness", a much misunderstood term, is a mode of biological change that is dependent on population phenomena; it is not a statement about the rate or tempo of evolution. Truly genetically gradual events are changes within the range of biological variation expected between two consecutive generations. Morphological change may appear fast, geologically speaking, yet still be genetically gradual (Darwin 1872, pp. 312-317; Dawkins 1996, p.241; Gould 2002, pp. 150-152; Mayr 1991, pp. 42-47; Rhodes 1983). Though gradualness is not a mechanism of evolutionary change, it imposes severe constraints on possible macroevolutionary events. Likewise, the requirement of gradualness necessarily restricts the possible mechanisms of common descent and adaptation, briefly discussed below.

Common Descent Can Be Tested Independently of Mechanistic Theories
In this essay, universal common descent alone is specifically considered and weighed against the scientific evidence. In general, separate "microevolutionary" theories are left unaddressed. Microevolutionary theories are gradualistic explanatory mechanisms that biologists use to account for the origin and evolution of macroevolutionary adaptations and variation. These mechanisms include such concepts as natural selection, genetic drift, sexual selection, neutral evolution, and theories of speciation. The fundamentals of genetics, developmental biology, molecular biology, biochemistry, and geology are assumed to be fundamentally correct—especially those that do not directly purport to explain adaptation. However, whether microevolutionary theories are sufficient to account for macroevolutionary adaptations is a question that is left open.

Therefore, the evidence for common descent discussed here is independent of specific gradualistic explanatory mechanisms. None of the dozens of predictions directly address how macroevolution has occurred, how fins were able to develop into limbs, how the leopard got its spots, or how the vertebrate eye evolved. None of the evidence recounted here assumes that natural selection is valid. None of the evidence assumes that natural selection is sufficient for generating adaptations or the differences between species and other taxa. Because of this evidentiary independence, the validity of the macroevolutionary conclusion does not depend on whether natural selection, or the inheritance of acquired characaters, or a force vitale, or something else is the true mechanism of adaptive evolutionary change. The scientific case for common descent stands, regardless.

Furthermore, because it is not part of evolutionary theory, abiogenesis also is not considered in this discussion of macroevolution: abiogenesis is an independent hypothesis. In evolutionary theory it is taken as axiomatic that an original self-replicating life form existed in the distant past, regardless of its origin. All scientific theories have their respective, specific explanatory domains; no scientific theory proposes to explain everything. Quantum mechanics does not explain the ultimate origin of particles and energy, even though nothing in that theory could work without particles and energy. Neither Newton's theory of universal gravitation nor the general theory of relativity attempt to explain the origin of matter or gravity, even though both theories would be meaningless without the a priori existence of gravity and matter. Similarly, universal common descent is restricted to the biological patterns found in the Earth's biota; it does not attempt to explain the ultimate origin of life.

What is Meant by "Scientific Evidence" for Common Descent?
Scientific theories are validated by empirical testing against physical observations. Theories are not judged simply by their logical compatibility with the available data. Independent empirical testability is the hallmark of science—in science, an explanation must not only be compatible with the observed data, it must also be testable. By "testable" we mean that the hypothesis makes predictions about what observable evidence would be consistent and what would be incompatible with the hypothesis. Simple compatibility, in itself, is insufficient as scientific evidence, because all physical observations are consistent with an infinite number of unscientific conjectures. Furthermore, a scientific explanation must make risky predictions— the predictions should be necessary if the theory is correct, and few other theories should make the same necessary predictions.

As a clear example of an untestable, unscientific, hypothesis that is perfectly consistent with empirical observations, consider solipsism. The so-called hypothesis of solipsism holds that all of reality is the product of your mind. What experiments could be performed, what observations could be made, that could demonstrate that solipsism is wrong? Even though it is logically consistent with the data, solipsism cannot be tested by independent researchers. Any and all evidence is consistent with solipsism. Solipsism is unscientific precisely because no possible evidence could stand in contradiction to its predictions. For those interested, a brief explication of the scientific method and scientific philosophy has been included, such as what is meant by "scientific evidence", "falsification", and "testability".

In the following list of evidences, 30 major predictions of the hypothesis of common descent are enumerated and discussed. Under each point is a demonstration of how the prediction fares against actual biological testing. Each point lists a few examples of evolutionary confirmations followed by potential falsifications. Since one fundamental concept generates all of these predictions, most of them are interrelated. So that the logic will be easy to follow, related predictions are grouped into five separate subdivisions. Each subdivision has a paragraph or two introducing the main idea that unites the various predictions in that section. There are many in-text references given for each point. As will be seen, universal common descent makes many specific predictions about what should and what should not be observed in the biological world, and it has fared very well against empirically-obtained observations from the past 140+ years of intense scientific investigation.

It must be stressed that this approach to demonstrating the scientific support for macroevolution is not a circular argument: the truth of macroevolution is not assumed a priori in this discussion. Simply put, the theory of universal common descent, combined with modern biological knowledge, is used to deduce predictions. These predictions are then compared to the real world in order see how the theory fares in light of the observable evidence. In every example, it is quite possible that the predictions could be contradicted by the empirical evidence. In fact, if universal common descent were not accurrate, it is highly probable that these predictions would fail. These empirically validated predictions present such strong evidence for common descent for precisely this reason. The few examples given for each prediction are meant to represent general trends. By no means do I purport to state all predictions or potential falsifications; there are many more out there for the inquiring soul to uncover.

Are There Other Scientifically Valid Explanations?
The worldwide scientific research community from over the past 140 years has discovered that no known hypothesis other than universal common descent can account scientifically for the unity, diversity, and patterns of terrestrial life. This hypothesis has been verified and corroborated so extensively that it is currently accepted as fact by the overwhelming majority of professional researchers in the biological and geological sciences (AAAS 1990; NAS 2003; NCSE 2003; Working Group 2001). No alternate explanations compete scientifically with common descent, primarily for four main reasons: (1) so many of the predictions of common descent have been confirmed from independent areas of science, (2) no significant contradictory evidence has yet been found, (3) competing possibilities have been contradicted by enormous amounts of scientific data, and (4) many other explanations are untestable, though they may be trivially consistent with biological data.

When evaluating the scientific evidence provided in the following pages, please consider alternate explanations. Most importantly, for each piece of evidence, critically consider what potential observations, if found, would be incompatible with a given alternate explanation. If none exist, that alternate explanation is not scientific. As explained above, a hypothesis that is simply compatible with certain empirical observations cannot use those observations as supporting scientific evidence.

How to Cite This Document
Many people have asked how to cite this work in formal research papers and academic articles. This work is an online publication, published by the Talk.Origins archive. There are standard academic procedures for citing online publications. For example, if you last accessed this page on January 12, 2004, and used version 2.83, here is a reference in formal MLA style:

Theobald, Douglas L. "29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: The Scientific Case for Common Descent." The Talk.Origins Archive. Vers. 2.83. 2004. 12 Jan, 2004 <http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/>

For more information about citing online sources, including MLA, APA, Chicago, and CBE styles, see the formal style guidelines given in the book Online!: a reference guide to using internet sources.

"... there are many reasons why you might not understand [an explanation of a scientific theory] ... Finally, there is this possibility: after I tell you something, you just can't believe it. You can't accept it. You don't like it. A little screen comes down and you don't listen anymore. I'm going to describe to you how Nature is - and if you don't like it, that's going to get in the way of your understanding it. It's a problem that [scientists] have learned to deal with: They've learned to realize that whether they like a theory or they don't like a theory is not the essential question. Rather, it is whether or not the theory gives predictions that agree with experiment. It is not a question of whether a theory is philosophically delightful, or easy to understand, or perfectly reasonable from the point of view of common sense. [A scientific theory] describes Nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And it agrees fully with experiment. So I hope you can accept Nature as She is - absurd.

I'm going to have fun telling you about this absurdity, because I find it delightful. Please don't turn yourself off because you can't believe Nature is so strange. Just hear me all out, and I hope you'll be as delighted as I am when we're through. "

- Richard P. Feynman (1918-1988),
from the introductory lecture on quantum mechanics reproduced in QED: The Strange Theory of Light and Matter (Feynman 1985).


Next

References
American Association for the Advancement of Science (1990) Science for All Americans. http://www.project2061.org/tools/sfaaol/sfaatoc.htm

Darwin, C. (1872) The Origin of Species. Sixth Edition. The Modern Library, New York.

Dawkins, R. (1996) The Blind Watchmaker. New York, Norton.

Feynman, R. P. (1985) QED: The Strange Theory of Light and Matter. Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press.

Freeman, S. and Herron, J. C. (2004) Evolutionary analysis Third edition. Upper Saddle River, NJ: Pearson/Prentice Hall.

Futuyma, D. (1998) Evolutionary Biology. Third edition. Sunderland, MA: Sinauer Associates.

Geological Society of America (2001) "Evolution." http://www.geosociety.org/aboutus/position.htm

Gould, S. J. (2002) The Structure of Evolutionary Theory. Cambridge, MA: Belknap Press of Harvard University Press.

Mayr, E. (1991) One Long Argument. Cambridge, Harvard University Press.

National Academy of Sciences. (2003) multiple statements. http://www7.nationalacademies.org/evolution/nas.html

National Center for Science Education. (2003) "Voices for Evolution: Statements from Scientific and Scholarly Organizations."
A compilation of statements from 47 of the world's largest and most prestigious societies of professional research scientists, on the importance of evolutionary theory.
http://www.ncseweb.org/resourc....002.asp

Rhodes, F. H. T. (1983) "Gradualism, punctuated equilibria, and the origin of species." Nature 305: 269-272.

Ridley, M. (1993) Evolution. Boston: Blackwell Scientific.

Working Group (2001) "Evolution, Science, and Society: Evolutionary biology and the national research agenda." American Naturalist. 158: S1. Endorsed by:
American Institute of Biological Sciences,
American Society of Naturalists,
Animal Behavior Society,
Ecological Society of America,
Genetics Society of America,
Paleontological Society,
Society for Molecular Biology and Evolution,
Society for the Study of Evolution, and
Society of Systematic Biologists.
Full-text at http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~ecolevol/fulldoc.pdf and http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~ecolevol/fulldoc.html
 
you know I was just thinking,  I've watched this board for awhile now,  and everyone (I think) thats to the evolutionist side, has sent prayers and such to other people when something bad has happened,  if thats the case why the hell would you send prayers if you do not believe?     answer that why don't ya'll
Actually, I usually convey "my thoughts" to someone, though for all of my useless drivel in this thread and my belief in science, my background with a grandmother that's an ordained minister and tons of family that do believe, I've been known to pray in my lifetime
laugh.gif


I could just as easily ask how someone can stand in the pulpit beating a Bible and telling everyone they're going to hell if they don't do xyz, repent, pray and believe, then they go home and beat their wife, abuse some kids, have affairs and the like...hrmmmm...
wink.gif
 
ok fine since you dont want to go read.

Permission is granted to copy and print these pages in total for non-profit personal, educational, research, or critical purposes.


Introduction
volution, the overarching concept that unifies the biological sciences, in fact embraces a plurality of theories and hypotheses. In evolutionary debates one is apt to hear evolution roughly parceled between the terms "microevolution" and "macroevolution". Microevolution, or change beneath the species level, may be thought of as relatively small scale change in the functional and genetic constituencies of populations of organisms. That this occurs and has been observed is generally undisputed by critics of evolution. What is vigorously challenged, however, is macroevolution. Macroevolution is evolution on the "grand scale" resulting in the origin of higher taxa. In evolutionary theory it thus entails common ancestry, descent with modification, speciation, the genealogical relatedness of all life, transformation of species, and large scale functional and structural changes of populations through time, all at or above the species level (Freeman and Herron 2004; Futuyma 1998; Ridley 1993).

Common descent is a general descriptive theory that concerns the genetic origins of living organisms (though not the ultimate origin of life). The theory specifically postulates that all of the earth's known biota are genealogically related, much in the same way that siblings or cousins are related to one another. Thus, macroevolutionary history and processes necessarily entail the transformation of one species into another and, consequently, the origin of higher taxa. Because it is so well supported scientifically, common descent is often called the "fact of evolution" by biologists. For these reasons, proponents of special creation are especially hostile to the macroevolutionary foundation of the biological sciences.

This article directly addresses the scientific evidence in favor of common descent and macroevolution. This article is specifically intended for those who are scientifically minded but, for one reason or another, have come to believe that macroevolutionary theory explains little, makes few or no testable predictions, is unfalsifiable, or has not been scientifically demonstrated.

Outline
Introduction

Universal Common Descent Defined
Evidence for Common Descent is Independent of Mechanism
What Counts as Scientific Evidence
Other Explanations for the Biology
How to Cite This Document
Scientific Evidence and the Scientific Method

Phylogenetics introduction

Figure 1: A consensus universal phylogeny
Cladistics and phylogenetic reconstruction
Maximum parsimony
Maximum likelihood
Distance matrix methods
Statistical support for phylogenies
Does phylogenetic inference find correct trees?
Caveats with determining phylogenetic trees
Part I. A unique, historical phylogenetic tree

Unity of life
Nested hierarchies
Convergence of independent phylogenies
Statistics of incongruent phylogenies
Transitional forms
Reptile-birds
Reptile-mammals
Ape-humans
Legged whales
Legged seacows
Chronology of common ancestors
Part 2. Past history

Anatomical vestiges
Atavisms
Whales with hindlimbs
Humans tails
Molecular vestiges
Ontogeny and developmental biology
Mammalian ear bones, reptilian jaws
Pharyngeal pouches, branchial arches
Snake embryos with legs
Embryonic human tail
Marsupial eggshell and caruncle
Present biogeography
Past biogeography
Marsupials
Horses
Apes and humans

Part 3. Evolutionary opportunism

Anatomical parahomology
Molecular parahomology
Anatomical convergence
Molecular convergence
Anatomical suboptimal function
Molecular suboptimal function
Part 4. Molecular evidence

Protein functional redundancy
DNA functional redundancy
Transposons
Redundant pseudogenes
Endogenous retroviruses
Part 5. Change

Genetic
Morphological
Functional
The strange past
Stages of speciation
Speciation events
Morphological rates
Genetic rates
Closing remarks


Other Links:
A Critique of Douglas Theobald's "29 Evidences for Macroevolution"
Lawyer, Churches of Christ minister, and young-earth creationist Ashby Camp argues that the evidence is insufficient to establish that all organisms share the same biological ancestor.
Theobald Responds to Ashby Camp's "Critique"
The author of this essay has written a response to Camp.  
Search this FAQ  
   
What is Universal Common Descent?
niversal common descent is the hypothesis that all living, terrestrial organisms are genealogically related. All existing species originated gradually by biological, reproductive processes on a geological timescale. Modern organisms are the genetic descendants of one original species or communal gene pool. Genetical "gradualness", a much misunderstood term, is a mode of biological change that is dependent on population phenomena; it is not a statement about the rate or tempo of evolution. Truly genetically gradual events are changes within the range of biological variation expected between two consecutive generations. Morphological change may appear fast, geologically speaking, yet still be genetically gradual (Darwin 1872, pp. 312-317; Dawkins 1996, p.241; Gould 2002, pp. 150-152; Mayr 1991, pp. 42-47; Rhodes 1983). Though gradualness is not a mechanism of evolutionary change, it imposes severe constraints on possible macroevolutionary events. Likewise, the requirement of gradualness necessarily restricts the possible mechanisms of common descent and adaptation, briefly discussed below.

Common Descent Can Be Tested Independently of Mechanistic Theories
In this essay, universal common descent alone is specifically considered and weighed against the scientific evidence. In general, separate "microevolutionary" theories are left unaddressed. Microevolutionary theories are gradualistic explanatory mechanisms that biologists use to account for the origin and evolution of macroevolutionary adaptations and variation. These mechanisms include such concepts as natural selection, genetic drift, sexual selection, neutral evolution, and theories of speciation. The fundamentals of genetics, developmental biology, molecular biology, biochemistry, and geology are assumed to be fundamentally correct—especially those that do not directly purport to explain adaptation. However, whether microevolutionary theories are sufficient to account for macroevolutionary adaptations is a question that is left open.

Therefore, the evidence for common descent discussed here is independent of specific gradualistic explanatory mechanisms. None of the dozens of predictions directly address how macroevolution has occurred, how fins were able to develop into limbs, how the leopard got its spots, or how the vertebrate eye evolved. None of the evidence recounted here assumes that natural selection is valid. None of the evidence assumes that natural selection is sufficient for generating adaptations or the differences between species and other taxa. Because of this evidentiary independence, the validity of the macroevolutionary conclusion does not depend on whether natural selection, or the inheritance of acquired characaters, or a force vitale, or something else is the true mechanism of adaptive evolutionary change. The scientific case for common descent stands, regardless.

Furthermore, because it is not part of evolutionary theory, abiogenesis also is not considered in this discussion of macroevolution: abiogenesis is an independent hypothesis. In evolutionary theory it is taken as axiomatic that an original self-replicating life form existed in the distant past, regardless of its origin. All scientific theories have their respective, specific explanatory domains; no scientific theory proposes to explain everything. Quantum mechanics does not explain the ultimate origin of particles and energy, even though nothing in that theory could work without particles and energy. Neither Newton's theory of universal gravitation nor the general theory of relativity attempt to explain the origin of matter or gravity, even though both theories would be meaningless without the a priori existence of gravity and matter. Similarly, universal common descent is restricted to the biological patterns found in the Earth's biota; it does not attempt to explain the ultimate origin of life.

What is Meant by "Scientific Evidence" for Common Descent?
Scientific theories are validated by empirical testing against physical observations. Theories are not judged simply by their logical compatibility with the available data. Independent empirical testability is the hallmark of science—in science, an explanation must not only be compatible with the observed data, it must also be testable. By "testable" we mean that the hypothesis makes predictions about what observable evidence would be consistent and what would be incompatible with the hypothesis. Simple compatibility, in itself, is insufficient as scientific evidence, because all physical observations are consistent with an infinite number of unscientific conjectures. Furthermore, a scientific explanation must make risky predictions— the predictions should be necessary if the theory is correct, and few other theories should make the same necessary predictions.

As a clear example of an untestable, unscientific, hypothesis that is perfectly consistent with empirical observations, consider solipsism. The so-called hypothesis of solipsism holds that all of reality is the product of your mind. What experiments could be performed, what observations could be made, that could demonstrate that solipsism is wrong? Even though it is logically consistent with the data, solipsism cannot be tested by independent researchers. Any and all evidence is consistent with solipsism. Solipsism is unscientific precisely because no possible evidence could stand in contradiction to its predictions. For those interested, a brief explication of the scientific method and scientific philosophy has been included, such as what is meant by "scientific evidence", "falsification", and "testability".

In the following list of evidences, 30 major predictions of the hypothesis of common descent are enumerated and discussed. Under each point is a demonstration of how the prediction fares against actual biological testing. Each point lists a few examples of evolutionary confirmations followed by potential falsifications. Since one fundamental concept generates all of these predictions, most of them are interrelated. So that the logic will be easy to follow, related predictions are grouped into five separate subdivisions. Each subdivision has a paragraph or two introducing the main idea that unites the various predictions in that section. There are many in-text references given for each point. As will be seen, universal common descent makes many specific predictions about what should and what should not be observed in the biological world, and it has fared very well against empirically-obtained observations from the past 140+ years of intense scientific investigation.

It must be stressed that this approach to demonstrating the scientific support for macroevolution is not a circular argument: the truth of macroevolution is not assumed a priori in this discussion. Simply put, the theory of universal common descent, combined with modern biological knowledge, is used to deduce predictions. These predictions are then compared to the real world in order see how the theory fares in light of the observable evidence. In every example, it is quite possible that the predictions could be contradicted by the empirical evidence. In fact, if universal common descent were not accurrate, it is highly probable that these predictions would fail. These empirically validated predictions present such strong evidence for common descent for precisely this reason. The few examples given for each prediction are meant to represent general trends. By no means do I purport to state all predictions or potential falsifications; there are many more out there for the inquiring soul to uncover.

Are There Other Scientifically Valid Explanations?
The worldwide scientific research community from over the past 140 years has discovered that no known hypothesis other than universal common descent can account scientifically for the unity, diversity, and patterns of terrestrial life. This hypothesis has been verified and corroborated so extensively that it is currently accepted as fact by the overwhelming majority of professional researchers in the biological and geological sciences (AAAS 1990; NAS 2003; NCSE 2003; Working Group 2001). No alternate explanations compete scientifically with common descent, primarily for four main reasons: (1) so many of the predictions of common descent have been confirmed from independent areas of science, (2) no significant contradictory evidence has yet been found, (3) competing possibilities have been contradicted by enormous amounts of scientific data, and (4) many other explanations are untestable, though they may be trivially consistent with biological data.

When evaluating the scientific evidence provided in the following pages, please consider alternate explanations. Most importantly, for each piece of evidence, critically consider what potential observations, if found, would be incompatible with a given alternate explanation. If none exist, that alternate explanation is not scientific. As explained above, a hypothesis that is simply compatible with certain empirical observations cannot use those observations as supporting scientific evidence.

How to Cite This Document
Many people have asked how to cite this work in formal research papers and academic articles. This work is an online publication, published by the Talk.Origins archive. There are standard academic procedures for citing online publications. For example, if you last accessed this page on January 12, 2004, and used version 2.83, here is a reference in formal MLA style:

Theobald, Douglas L. "29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: The Scientific Case for Common Descent." The Talk.Origins Archive. Vers. 2.83. 2004. 12 Jan, 2004 <http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/>

For more information about citing online sources, including MLA, APA, Chicago, and CBE styles, see the formal style guidelines given in the book Online!: a reference guide to using internet sources.

"... there are many reasons why you might not understand [an explanation of a scientific theory] ... Finally, there is this possibility: after I tell you something, you just can't believe it. You can't accept it. You don't like it. A little screen comes down and you don't listen anymore. I'm going to describe to you how Nature is - and if you don't like it, that's going to get in the way of your understanding it. It's a problem that [scientists] have learned to deal with: They've learned to realize that whether they like a theory or they don't like a theory is not the essential question. Rather, it is whether or not the theory gives predictions that agree with experiment. It is not a question of whether a theory is philosophically delightful, or easy to understand, or perfectly reasonable from the point of view of common sense. [A scientific theory] describes Nature as absurd from the point of view of common sense. And it agrees fully with experiment. So I hope you can accept Nature as She is - absurd.

I'm going to have fun telling you about this absurdity, because I find it delightful. Please don't turn yourself off because you can't believe Nature is so strange. Just hear me all out, and I hope you'll be as delighted as I am when we're through. "

- Richard P. Feynman (1918-1988),
from the introductory lecture on quantum mechanics reproduced in QED: The Strange Theory of Light and Matter (Feynman 1985).


Next  

References
American Association for the Advancement of Science (1990) Science for All Americans. http://www.project2061.org/tools/sfaaol/sfaatoc.htm

Darwin, C. (1872) The Origin of Species. Sixth Edition. The Modern Library, New York.

Dawkins, R. (1996) The Blind Watchmaker. New York, Norton.

Feynman, R. P. (1985) QED: The Strange Theory of Light and Matter. Princeton, NJ: Princeton University Press.

Freeman, S. and Herron, J. C. (2004) Evolutionary analysis Third edition. Upper Saddle River, NJ: Pearson/Prentice Hall.

Futuyma, D. (1998) Evolutionary Biology. Third edition. Sunderland, MA: Sinauer Associates.

Geological Society of America (2001) "Evolution." http://www.geosociety.org/aboutus/position.htm

Gould, S. J. (2002) The Structure of Evolutionary Theory. Cambridge, MA: Belknap Press of Harvard University Press.

Mayr, E. (1991) One Long Argument. Cambridge, Harvard University Press.

National Academy of Sciences. (2003) multiple statements. http://www7.nationalacademies.org/evolution/nas.html

National Center for Science Education. (2003) "Voices for Evolution: Statements from Scientific and Scholarly Organizations."
A compilation of statements from 47 of the world's largest and most prestigious societies of professional research scientists, on the importance of evolutionary theory.
http://www.ncseweb.org/resourc....002.asp

Rhodes, F. H. T. (1983) "Gradualism, punctuated equilibria, and the origin of species." Nature 305: 269-272.

Ridley, M. (1993) Evolution. Boston: Blackwell Scientific.

Working Group (2001) "Evolution, Science, and Society: Evolutionary biology and the national research agenda." American Naturalist. 158: S1. Endorsed by:
American Institute of Biological Sciences,
American Society of Naturalists,
Animal Behavior Society,
Ecological Society of America,
Genetics Society of America,
Paleontological Society,
Society for Molecular Biology and Evolution,
Society for the Study of Evolution, and
Society of Systematic Biologists.
Full-text at http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~ecolevol/fulldoc.pdf and http://www.rci.rutgers.edu/~ecolevol/fulldoc.html
I dare you to say that again...
 
onerabidshark brought out the
moderator.gif
guns.gif
poke.gif


Love does not equal survival of the fittest... Anyone who loves would do anything in their power to keep something they love alive, "fit or unfit".

Speaking of giving your life to let your children live... Yes, I believe most would out of love... But could/would you give your childs life to save another?

Good conversation and thanks for keeping it civil
smile.gif
 
Problem No. 1
There is no scientific law that allows something to evolve from nothing. If there was nothing in the universe to begin with, obviously nothing could happen to cause anything to appear.


Who says there was nothing? Matter cant be destroyed or created. Everything evolved from matter, now prove to me when there was no matter to begin with?

Problem No. 2
No scientific law can account for non-living things’ coming to life. The soil in your garden didn't turn into the trees and flowers. They came from seeds, cuttings, or grafts from other trees and flowers.


and where did the seeds, cuttings, or grafts come from? They came from earlier forms.

Problem No. 3
There is no known scientific law that would allow one kind of creature to turn naturally into a completely different kind. Insects don't evolve into more complex non-insects for instance, because they don't have the genes to do it.


Uhmm that is evolution, that's how it works. Environment has the largest impact on evolution, with environment changes things either evole to cope or die out.
I belive that about does it.
 
Clergy project

See not all "Bible Thumpers" are blind to the truth.

We the undersigned, Christian clergy from many different traditions, believe that the timeless truths of the Bible and the discoveries of modern science may comfortably coexist. We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as “one theory among othersâ€￾ is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children. We believe that among God’s good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator. To argue that God’s loving plan of salvation for humanity precludes the full employment of the God-given faculty of reason is to attempt to limit God, an act of hubris. We urge school board members to preserve the integrity of the science curriculum by affirming the teaching of the theory of evolution as a core component of human knowledge. We ask that science remain science and that religion remain religion, two very different, but complementary, forms of truth.



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