The difference a decision can make

[fstbusa]

(Charlesbusa @ Jan. 26 2007,13

) I don't like decisions like this.

Even though the guy running is scum, he isn't guilty of murder in my opinion.  He's guilty of many other crimes, but not murder.

If I(civilian) had died out there because of that chase, you can rest assured there wouldn't be any murder charge or conviction.  The ONLY reason he's guilty of murder is because the victim is a cop.

+1000000000000000000000000

amen!!!!!!


I hate reading that!  There is no doubt he is guilty of MANY MANY things but not murder....

The rider is in no way responsible for the FREE WILL choice that the officer made to pursue the fugitive at break neck speeds. The officer knew it was unsafe. I could possibly accept maybe involuntary manslaughter.... but murder? comeon!

Sad to hear the guy is going away for life for some choice someone else made.

 

[frisbee]

To bad that law enforcement doesn't have more helicopters . That would save them the chase. I don't think that the cops should have chased him at that speed for just being a bike thief but they did and theres no changing that . but the scumbag thief knew what he was doing was wrong , he knew what would happen if a cop spotted him, and he knew that having them chase him would risk his life and others ! He is responsible !

What if he was riding away from the cops at 130mph and plowed your moms car in the side and killed her ? Would it be the cops problem for chasing him ? No It would still be his fault for being a dumba$$ scumbag thief trying to run from the cops !!

There's my 2 cents.

 

[dadofthree]

(craigntx @ Jan. 27 2007,10:17) how can they prove he even knew the cop was behind him? was it an ongoing chase where he was seen looking back, making wild turns, etc?
i, a friend of mine, and a member here all have been to the grey bar motel for running, despite the fact we didnt know the po-po was back there.
if i missed some facts that i queried so solly....

Let's see, I ran because I didn't know I was being pursued

In the state of SC it doesn't matter. The law for Failure to Stop When Signaled specifically states no excuses.

Did he really know he was a damn criminal.

 

[monster]

I'm certain the officer would still be alive if he didn't engage in a high speed chase with a motorcycle. I'm not saying what the cyclist did was right and I'm not blaming the officer for his own death, siply put high speed chases are very dangerous not only to the vehicles involved.

 

[fstbusa]

I can see both sides.... but he also didn't even hit the cop... frisbee in your situation the thief was involved in the accident, he wasn't involved in the accident whatsoever. Sounds like the attorney should have some fault in it for pulling out in front of the pursuing officers causing him to swerve into the tree.

 

[dadofthree]

(fstbusa @ Jan. 27 2007,10:54)

(Charlesbusa @ Jan. 26 2007,13

) I don't like decisions like this.

Even though the guy running is scum, he isn't guilty of murder in my opinion. He's guilty of many other crimes, but not murder.

If I(civilian) had died out there because of that chase, you can rest assured there wouldn't be any murder charge or conviction. The ONLY reason he's guilty of murder is because the victim is a cop.

+1000000000000000000000000

amen!!!!!!


I hate reading that! There is no doubt he is guilty of MANY MANY things but not murder....

The rider is in no way responsible for the FREE WILL choice that the officer made to pursue the fugitive at break neck speeds. The officer knew it was unsafe. I could possibly accept maybe involuntary manslaughter.... but murder? comeon!

Sad to hear the guy is going away for life for some choice someone else made.

I have to disagree, then get of this thread before I write something I'll regret.

In Florida where they get the tag and go to the house and seize the bike everyone is upset. In this case where they chase the felon and an officer dies and the criminal receives justice, you get upset.

I guess we can all just do whatever the hell we wish and blame someone else.

 

[dadofthree]

Sorry psycobusa, 2nd degree murder according to the article.

 

[craigntx]

(dadofthree @ Jan. 27 2007,11:15)

(craigntx @ Jan. 27 2007,10:17) how can they prove he even knew the cop was behind him? was it an ongoing chase where he was seen looking back, making wild turns, etc?
i, a friend of mine, and a member here all have been to the grey bar motel for running, despite the fact we didnt know the po-po was back there.
if i missed some facts that i queried so solly....

Let's see, I ran because I didn't know I was being pursued

In the state of SC it doesn't matter. The law for Failure to Stop When Signaled specifically states no excuses.

Did he really know he was a damn criminal.

sometimes the popo is so far back the biker dont even know he's there. especially with a helmet on, blocking your hearing. also when hauling azz, you usually dont constantly watch the rear views.
now if homey is turning around and obviously sees the cops, thats 1 thing.
all im sayin is sometimes we dont even know the cops there.
say you zoom by a hidden cop. he pulls out and a truck runs him over, kills him.
ok, say youve made a couple of turns soon after you picked him up. if the cop loses control in the turn, is that the bikes fault?

 

[ks-waterbug]

That would be a valid point barring one thing.....  HE'S A BIKE THIEF! HE knew what he was doing was wrong before he put the darn thing in gear and started his life of crime! This wasn't someone out for a Sunday drive! He was prepared to do whatever it took to evade being captured. As to the officer giving chase, have you ever got caught up in your emotion so as to blind your judgement? Thats what happened here... During the pursuit of one felon this officer misjudged the squad cars capability and thats all it took. The bad guy is caught and in my opinion should be held responsible for His actions. Cause, but for the fleeing felons attempt at an evade this officer would still be with us today! If your still not convienced put yourself in the shoes of the Officer who had to go knock on the fallen officers door. Now you try telling the officers family and small children that Daddy ain't coming home.....

 

[fstbusa]

its sad an officer died trying to uphold justice but how can it be the theif's fault the officer got caught up in his emotion and made a bad judgement. Next time I make a bad judgement I'll make sure I blame someone else but myself....


is it the officers fault that the thief decided to steal the bike?

is it the officers fault that the thief decided to speed?

is it the thief's fault the attorney pulled out in front of the officer causing him to swerve?

is it theif's fault the officer swerved to avoid an accident loosing control of his own vehicle and crashed?


The verdict would have been different if a civilian was driving and someone started to pull out in front of them and they swerved and lost control of a vehicle and crashed and died.

I thought there was a violation for "FAILURE TO MAINTAIN CONTROL"

 

[captain]

I must have blinders on..... Craigntx I think this is the part where we can confirm he new the officer was there.... Deutsch said Grider's disregard for the law was obvious, noting testimony he flashed an obscene gesture at another police officer shortly after the chase began[/Quote]

A couple of great points above but let me give you a the insight from a guy (Me) that was an police officer not 15 miles from where this accident occurred. Driving at 100 mph is nothing to a police officer in Oklahoma. Lots of open spaces, you guys are talking about something most of you know nothing about and you are judging an officer for the very thing that you do. You ride your busas down the highway at 125 mph all the time, (dont kid yourself we all have done it) and its very comfortable and we feel like we are in control. One outside influence at the right time, like a rock or a car pulling out in front of you and your safety zone is gone... This Sgt. was chasing a known motorcycle thief at a fairly high rate of speed but not mind boggling down an interstate or anything like that. One of those outside influences effected the Sgt. while he was doing his job, not emotion... Jeeesh he wasnt a rookie he had done this tons of times. He was chasing a bad guy, not a traffic ticket, not a kid out too late but a thief. The next time I hear anyone on this site go down because of an outside influence like a rock or sand or ANOTHER CAR THAT PULLS IN FRONT OF YOU I guess we should say that they didnt have the skill to keep it on two wheels and they were just caught in the emotion.

I am suprised by the closed mindedness of some of you here........ How many time have we seen threads on this forum where a bike was stolen and where was the damn cops, why didnt they do anything, why didnt they patrol more often, looks like they found one and now you want to criticize how they tried to catch him....

Screw the kid, the waste is someone so young that made such a shitty decision. Not that I feel sorry for him.... He made a choice to run from the law, he definately new the consequences..... The wife of the officer is an OKC officer too, she stated that they both new the risk of being officers... This guy gave his life unwillingly I might ad to catch a criminal, how about a little respect and maybe a thank you Sgt. Jonathan Dragus for attempting to protect the public....

CAp

 

[Fate]

This topic almost gets me too mad to post. If this guy had stolen your property and the cops did nothing to try to get your property back, the guys that are saying that it is not the perps fault would be the same guys bitching the cops did not do their job. If This guy was allowed to run and no one chased him and he ended up killing a relative of yours, you would be asking where the cops were through this whole situation. He broke the law and endangered everyones lives including law enforcement and civilians alike.

 

[Fate]

My prayers are with the family of this officer.

 

[fstbusa]

great respect from me to the officer and his family.... I think regardless of what the perp did, the outcome would still be the same....

even if it was just for a 100mph speeding ticket...... my opinion is that the perp shouldn't have to suffer because an officer lost control because of an outside uncontrollable circumstance.



that would be like saying the president/goverment should have to "suffer" because I chose to go to into the military and I got stationed in iraq and got killed by some iraq soldier. If you know the risk when you got into it......

 

[slimshady]

(ks-waterbug @ Jan. 27 2007,05:52) WHAT.... He is guilty of murder! If it were not for his own actions the officer in question would not be dead. HE chose to not obey the law when HE stole the bike. HE chose to break the law by not pulling over and ending the chase. He chose through his reckless actions to endanger the lives of not only the PD but of every Law abiding citizen on the street that day! Hell, I bet He probably has a string of other crimes that he never got caught for and now we say the cop shouldn't have done his job. Are you kidding me? What if this scum had hit another motorist while fleeing? Better yet what if HE killed one of your relatives in his attempt to evade being caught? Would that be a murder  on his part or just an accident? When someone makes the personal decision to NOT obey the law then they should suffer the consequences. In this case the message conveyed to criminals is you can't run to avoid being caught and if you chose to do this YOU will be held responsible for any and all accidents, deaths, mayhem you might cause in the commission of your crime! To me this is no different than a DUI or drunk driver killing someone will operating a vehicle under the influence... I get really tired of the other side making excuses for their stupidity all while trying to pin the blame for their actions on someone or something else!
HANG HIM HIGH I HAVE NO SYMPATHY FOR THIS INDIVIDUAL...

Very well spoken. I couldnt have said it better myself.

 

[slimshady]

(captain @ Jan. 27 2007,15:09) A couple of great points above but let me give you a the insight from a guy (Me) that was an police officer not 15 miles from where this accident occurred. Driving at 100 mph is nothing to a police officer in Oklahoma. Lots of open spaces, you guys are talking about something most of you know nothing about and you are judging an officer for the very thing that you do. You ride your busas down the highway at 125 mph all the time, (dont kid yourself we all have done it) and its very comfortable and we feel like we are in control. One outside influence at the right time, like a rock or a car pulling out in front of you and your safety zone is gone... This Sgt. was chasing a known motorcycle thief at a fairly high rate of speed but not mind boggling down an interstate or anything like that. One of those outside influences effected the Sgt. while he was doing his job, not emotion... Jeeesh he wasnt a rookie he had done this tons of times. He was chasing a bad guy, not a traffic ticket, not a kid out too late but a thief. The next time I hear anyone on this site go down because of an outside influence like a rock or sand or ANOTHER CAR THAT PULLS IN FRONT OF YOU I guess we should say that they didnt have the skill to keep it on two wheels and they were just caught in the emotion.

I am suprised by the closed mindedness of some of you here........ How many time have we seen threads on this forum where a bike was stolen and where was the damn cops, why didnt they do anything, why didnt they patrol more often, looks like they found one and now you want to criticize how they tried to catch him....

Screw the kid, the waste is someone so young that made such a shitty decision. Not that I feel sorry for him.... He made a choice to run from the law, he definately new the consequences..... The wife of the officer is an OKC officer too, she stated that they both new the risk of being officers... This guy gave his life unwillingly I might ad to catch a criminal, how about a little respect and maybe a thank you Sgt. Jonathan Dragus for attempting to protect the public....

CAp

Also very well spoken. You are absolutely right.

 

[05 Busa LE]

Oklahoma Statutes Citationized
Title 21. Crimes and Punishments
Chapter 24 - Homicide
Section 701.8 - Second Degree Murder

Homicide is murder in the second degree in the following cases:

1. When perpetrated by an act imminently dangerous to another person and evincing a depraved mind, regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual; or

2. When perpetrated by a person engaged in the commission of any felony other than the unlawful acts set out in Section 1, subsection B, of this act.

Laws 1976, 1st Extr. Sess., c 1, § 2, emerg. eff. July 23, 1976, July 24, 1976.

 

[Poppy]

(Fate @ Jan. 27 2007,18:10)

This topic almost gets me too mad to post. If this guy had stolen your property and the cops did nothing to try to get your property back, the guys that are saying that it is not the perps fault would be the same guys bitching the cops did not do their job. If This guy was allowed to run and no one chased him and he ended up killing a relative of yours, you would be asking where the cops were through this whole situation. He broke the law and endangered everyones lives including law enforcement and civilians alike.  

I agree with Fate on this.

Dadofthree, speak your mind. I suspect you will have the majority agreeing with you on this.

 

[DaCol.]

Interesting

, I can't imagine going 103 at Penn and Northwest  

! I've never been able to do more than 45 with all that traffic !

Verdict, Hummmmmmm, wasn't there, didn't hear the case. But in Okla a 45 year sentence really means, maybe, 15 yrs

. Long, but definetely not life  

 

[AES]

(yamahor @ Jan. 26 2007,20:48) While I don't agree with the mans actions (He shouldn't have broken the law in the first place), I don't see it as his fault for the police Officers Death... It was his choice to pursue...

ok well would you see it as the police departments fault if he had crashed into a car arrying a family of five and killed everyone of them.... my prayers and sympathy goes out to the officers family, YOUR FREE TO HEAD HOME, WE HAVE THE STREETS.