The difference a decision can make

[TruWrecks]

(captain @ Jan. 28 2007,18:28) Was he close enough to read the plate (if there was one). If he did they could have picked the kid up at his house later on.

STOLEN MOTORCYCLE

So it's beginning to look like that Florida law to confiscate bikes is OK with you guys now?[/Quote]
I didn't catch that the bike was stolen. My mistake. That throws the "pick him up later" out the window, but not the rest.

We all make bad decisions in life. We just need to make fewer that put other people at risk!

2 bads don't make a good!

 

[Professor]

Kyle Wayne Grider should have already been in jail so he did not have the opportunity to steal the bike. If the justice system had done their part, he would have been in jail.

Look at this list. He would not have been able to commit the last two and likely many more he was never charged with.


Count as Filed: RCSP, CONCEALING STOLEN PROPERTY ,
Date Of Offense: 09/14/2004

Count as Filed: DU2II, POSSESSION OF A CDS ( METH ) SCHD II ,
Date Of Offense: 09/14/2004
Count as Filed: BRG2, BURGLARY - SECOND DEGREE
Date Of Offense: 10/09/2005

Count as Filed: BRG2, Burglary in the second degree ,
Date Of Offense: 09/13/2004

2005-93 MUSK Uttering Forged Instruments 5 Y DEFERRED 07/21/2005 07/20/2010
2005-93 MUSK Rec/Poss/Conc Stolen Property 5 Y DEFERRED 07/21/2005 07/20/2010

Count as Filed: HM12, MURDER - SECOND DEGREE ,
Date Of Offense: 10/20/2005

Count as Filed: ES6, AGGRAVATED ELUDING A POLICE OFFICER ,
Date Of Offense: 10/20/2005

 

[Charlesbusa]

(05 Busa LE @ Jan. 28 2007,08:08)

(Charlesbusa @ Jan. 27 2007,22

)

(05 Busa LE @ Jan. 27 2007,16:04) Oklahoma Statutes Citationized
 Title 21. Crimes and Punishments
   Chapter 24 - Homicide
       Section 701.8 - Second Degree Murder

Homicide is murder in the second degree in the following cases:

1. When perpetrated by an act imminently dangerous to another person and evincing a depraved mind, regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual; or

2. When perpetrated by a person engaged in the commission of any felony other than the unlawful acts set out in Section 1, subsection B, of this act.

Laws 1976, 1st Extr. Sess., c 1, § 2, emerg. eff. July 23, 1976, July 24, 1976.

You see, this is where I have a problem with this.

By the letter of the law, a crime "where somone who intentionally kills their wife in the spur of the moment" and a crime "where a bike thief who flees from law enforcement and a LEO dies becuase of an unrelated vehicle that causes the LEO to lose control and crash" are EQUAL  

Come on!  Do you really think those crimes are equal.  Hell NO!  

3rd degree murder/manslaughter   sure, that would be better, but not 2nd degree.

I'm not arguing who is responsible, I'm arguing about the defination of the crime.  If the biker ran the cop off the road, then yes 2nd degree murder is an appropriate charge.

And maybe I'm wrong, but I have NEVER heard of any felon being charged with 2nd degree murder because a civillian died as a result of a high speed chase.  Only in instances when a cop died.  I have a lot of respect for law abiding cops, but a cop's death isn't any more of a crime than a civillian's death!  A person is a person.

CB--you're mixing two degrees of murder ("where somone who intentionally kills their wife in the spur of the moment").  If it involves "intent," then it's first degree, and if it's "spur of the moment," then it's no more than second degree.

Anyway, don't blame the lawyers and judges and juries on this one--it's us, the public, who writes the laws.  If it's wrong there, then that's where it needs to be changed.

I thought 1st degree murder is premeditated, in other words it was planned out and intentional.

2nd degree murder is not planned but it was the suspects intention to kill the victim, spur of the moment.

3rd degree murder is not planned or intended.  The suspect kills someone unitentionally, but is responsible for the victim's death.

That's why I think 2nd degree is the completely WRONG charge here and 3rd degree is the proper charge.  If I was on that jury, he'd have been guilty of 3rd degree but not 2nd degree murder.

But with this case and the Florida case, where the officier's tire blew out, I feel that the charges were trumped up to 2nd degree because of the outrage that a LEO died.  Apparently a LEO's death is more important than a civillans...

If my facts are incorrect or my reasoning flawed, let me know why.

 

[Charlesbusa]

(captain @ Jan. 28 2007,10:28) Was he close enough to read the plate (if there was one).  If he did they could have picked the kid up at his house later on.

STOLEN MOTORCYCLE

So it's beginning to look like that Florida law to confiscate bikes is OK with you guys now?[/Quote]
Look, I'm all for cops catching the bad guys. Generally, I would rather the cop engage in a high pursuit chase than let the guy get away.

I think "we" should be MUCH harder on hit and runs, drunk driving, people who evade and thieves.


My arguement with this is the charge. I believe it should have been 3rd degree instead of 2nd degree. I completely agree that the bike thief is responsible.

 

[Charlesbusa]

(Professor @ Jan. 28 2007,12:31) Kyle Wayne Grider should have already been in jail so he did not have the opportunity to steal the bike. If the justice system had done their part, he would have been in jail.

Look at this list. He would not have been able to commit the last two and likely many more he was never charged with.


Count as Filed: RCSP, CONCEALING STOLEN PROPERTY ,
Date Of Offense: 09/14/2004

Count as Filed: DU2II, POSSESSION OF A CDS ( METH ) SCHD II ,
Date Of Offense: 09/14/2004
Count as Filed: BRG2, BURGLARY - SECOND DEGREE
Date Of Offense: 10/09/2005

Count as Filed: BRG2, Burglary in the second degree ,
Date Of Offense: 09/13/2004

2005-93 MUSK Uttering Forged Instruments 5 Y DEFERRED 07/21/2005 07/20/2010
2005-93 MUSK Rec/Poss/Conc Stolen Property 5 Y DEFERRED 07/21/2005 07/20/2010

Count as Filed: HM12, MURDER - SECOND DEGREE ,
Date Of Offense: 10/20/2005

Count as Filed: ES6, AGGRAVATED ELUDING A POLICE OFFICER ,
Date Of Offense: 10/20/2005

I agree, he never should have been on the streets.

Look at those dates, 2004 and 2005!! How'd he get out of jail so quick.

 

[Professor]

(Charlesbusa @ Jan. 28 2007,17:07)

(05 Busa LE @ Jan. 28 2007,08:08)

(Charlesbusa @ Jan. 27 2007,22

)

(05 Busa LE @ Jan. 27 2007,16:04) Oklahoma Statutes Citationized
 Title 21. Crimes and Punishments
   Chapter 24 - Homicide
       Section 701.8 - Second Degree Murder

Homicide is murder in the second degree in the following cases:

1. When perpetrated by an act imminently dangerous to another person and evincing a depraved mind, regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual; or

2. When perpetrated by a person engaged in the commission of any felony other than the unlawful acts set out in Section 1, subsection B, of this act.

Laws 1976, 1st Extr. Sess., c 1, § 2, emerg. eff. July 23, 1976, July 24, 1976.

You see, this is where I have a problem with this.

By the letter of the law, a crime "where somone who intentionally kills their wife in the spur of the moment" and a crime "where a bike thief who flees from law enforcement and a LEO dies becuase of an unrelated vehicle that causes the LEO to lose control and crash" are EQUAL  

Come on!  Do you really think those crimes are equal.  Hell NO!  

3rd degree murder/manslaughter   sure, that would be better, but not 2nd degree.

I'm not arguing who is responsible, I'm arguing about the defination of the crime.  If the biker ran the cop off the road, then yes 2nd degree murder is an appropriate charge.

And maybe I'm wrong, but I have NEVER heard of any felon being charged with 2nd degree murder because a civillian died as a result of a high speed chase.  Only in instances when a cop died.  I have a lot of respect for law abiding cops, but a cop's death isn't any more of a crime than a civillian's death!  A person is a person.

CB--you're mixing two degrees of murder ("where somone who intentionally kills their wife in the spur of the moment").  If it involves "intent," then it's first degree, and if it's "spur of the moment," then it's no more than second degree.

Anyway, don't blame the lawyers and judges and juries on this one--it's us, the public, who writes the laws.  If it's wrong there, then that's where it needs to be changed.

I thought 1st degree murder is premeditated, in other words it was planned out and intentional.

2nd degree murder is not planned but it was the suspects intention to kill the victim, spur of the moment.

3rd degree murder is not planned or intended.  The suspect kills someone unitentionally, but is responsible for the victim's death.

That's why I think 2nd degree is the completely WRONG charge here and 3rd degree is the proper charge.  If I was on that jury, he'd have been guilty of 3rd degree but not 2nd degree murder.

But with this case and the Florida case, where the officier's tire blew out, I feel that the charges were trumped up to 2nd degree because of the outrage that a LEO died.  Apparently a LEO's death is more important than a civillans...

If my facts are incorrect or my reasoning flawed, let me know why.

Charles,

The law says:
2. When perpetrated by a person engaged in the commission of any felony other than the unlawful acts set out in Section 1, subsection B, of this act.

He was committing a felony when the death occured.

 

[Ruth|ess]

I agree with chaslesbusa all the way... thx for saving me the typing heh...

I may not put my life on the line for $$ and making you all safe each day but I to have a family that loves me and friends as well... My life should be equal to this officer.... my thoughts and prayers go out to his family...

 

[Copperone]

After reading all of what has been written here, I have had a change in heart. At first I thought the officer should have recognized a very dangerous situation and backed off. But, after thinking about it, he was a sergeant and obviously an experienced officer who had dealt with similiar situations in the past. Based on his knowledge and skills as an experienced police officer he was doing exactly what he thought was right. Doing his job. Because he was doing his job to the best of his ability, and since the motorcycle thief did not stop the officer was killed in the line of duty. Sadly the officer's family will have deal with his loss for years to come. Yes the sentence for the crime is severe; but..., hopefully the message will go out and maybe, just maybe the next thief will not run from police. Did the thief who ran deserve such a harsh sentence? The jury thought so. He was convicted by 12 members of society from various walks of life. He was not convicted by the police.

 

[Charlesbusa]

(Professor @ Jan. 28 2007,16:25)

(Charlesbusa @ Jan. 28 2007,17:07)

(05 Busa LE @ Jan. 28 2007,08:08)

(Charlesbusa @ Jan. 27 2007,22

)

(05 Busa LE @ Jan. 27 2007,16:04) Oklahoma Statutes Citationized
 Title 21. Crimes and Punishments
   Chapter 24 - Homicide
       Section 701.8 - Second Degree Murder

Homicide is murder in the second degree in the following cases:

1. When perpetrated by an act imminently dangerous to another person and evincing a depraved mind, regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual; or

2. When perpetrated by a person engaged in the commission of any felony other than the unlawful acts set out in Section 1, subsection B, of this act.

Laws 1976, 1st Extr. Sess., c 1, § 2, emerg. eff. July 23, 1976, July 24, 1976.

You see, this is where I have a problem with this.

By the letter of the law, a crime "where somone who intentionally kills their wife in the spur of the moment" and a crime "where a bike thief who flees from law enforcement and a LEO dies becuase of an unrelated vehicle that causes the LEO to lose control and crash" are EQUAL  

Come on!  Do you really think those crimes are equal.  Hell NO!  

3rd degree murder/manslaughter   sure, that would be better, but not 2nd degree.

I'm not arguing who is responsible, I'm arguing about the defination of the crime.  If the biker ran the cop off the road, then yes 2nd degree murder is an appropriate charge.

And maybe I'm wrong, but I have NEVER heard of any felon being charged with 2nd degree murder because a civillian died as a result of a high speed chase.  Only in instances when a cop died.  I have a lot of respect for law abiding cops, but a cop's death isn't any more of a crime than a civillian's death!  A person is a person.

CB--you're mixing two degrees of murder ("where somone who intentionally kills their wife in the spur of the moment").  If it involves "intent," then it's first degree, and if it's "spur of the moment," then it's no more than second degree.

Anyway, don't blame the lawyers and judges and juries on this one--it's us, the public, who writes the laws.  If it's wrong there, then that's where it needs to be changed.

I thought 1st degree murder is premeditated, in other words it was planned out and intentional.

2nd degree murder is not planned but it was the suspects intention to kill the victim, spur of the moment.

3rd degree murder is not planned or intended.  The suspect kills someone unitentionally, but is responsible for the victim's death.

That's why I think 2nd degree is the completely WRONG charge here and 3rd degree is the proper charge.  If I was on that jury, he'd have been guilty of 3rd degree but not 2nd degree murder.

But with this case and the Florida case, where the officier's tire blew out, I feel that the charges were trumped up to 2nd degree because of the outrage that a LEO died.  Apparently a LEO's death is more important than a civillans...

If my facts are incorrect or my reasoning flawed, let me know why.

Charles,

The law says:
2. When perpetrated by a person engaged in the commission of any felony other than the unlawful acts set out in Section 1, subsection B, of this act.

He was committing a felony when the death occured.

Yeah, and that's what just doesn't make sense to me.

How can;
1)Killing your wife in the spur of the moment with a knife

be the same as

2)Evading the police because you stole the vehicle, a non-related vehicle causes the LEO to lose control and die.

or

3)Evading the police because you don't want a ticket, the LEO's cruiser blows a tire during the high speed chase causing the LEO to die.


HOW can number 1 be equal to #2 or #3.

Really, just think about it. Do you think that's the same. Running from the police and plunging a knife 25 times into your wife's body are the SAME

 

[BIGSMOOTHH]

I was going to render some of my humble opinion in this but....wow....what hasnt been said.

 

[gat0r]

(Charlesbusa @ Jan. 26 2007,23:29) I don't like decisions like this.

Even though the guy running is scum, he isn't guilty of murder in my opinion. He's guilty of many other crimes, but not murder.

If I(civilian) had died out there because of that chase, you can rest assured there wouldn't be any murder charge or conviction. The ONLY reason he's guilty of murder is because the victim is a cop.

fuk it, 1 less thief on the road.
the PD should reconsider its high speed pursuit policy.
(edited)

my prayers go to the officers family

 

[slimshady]

I dont think the penalty was too harsh at all.

That message needs to be sent to the criminal community that we as a society are not going to put up with this type of activity any longer.

We are and in some cases have become a nation where we have more laws protecting the criminals than we do for the honest people out here.

So you will not see me make any excuses for that loser.

Now, as for the ones who say that he would not have been charged with 2nd degree murder had he killed a citizen...... you are wrong.

I'm thinking of a court case the we had here in Durham County last year where a women was killed as a result of another loser running from the law in a stolen vehicle.
He hit her truck from the rear and caused the truck to overturn ejecting her onto the roadway.

He was charged with 2nd degree murder, careless and wreckless driving, dwi, possession of a stolen vehicle, driving while license revoked, felony speeding to elude arrest by the NCSHP. Get this the NCSHP wasnt even chasing the guy! It was a local sheriff's officer.

He was found guilty on ALL accounts by a jury of 12.

The point is that people (society) are getting tired of these losers in cars and motorcycles alike running (when the law states that we all are supposed to stop for blue lights and sirens) from police. Whatever happens as a result either to the officer or a citizen, they (the running criminal) will be held responsible for it.

 

[05 Busa LE]

(05 Busa LE @ Jan. 27 2007,19:04) Homicide is murder in the second degree in the following cases ... [w]hen perpetrated by an act imminently dangerous to another person and evincing a depraved mind, regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual ....

There's no "intent" in second-degree murder; it happens so fast that the law says that the person didn't have the time to form an intent.

The key to second degree murder (in the Oklahoma statute) is the phrase "imminently dangerous to another person and evincing a depraved mind, regardless of human life." That's where they got the guy--high speeds are imminently dangerous to EVERYONE (not just the officer who died), and were, in this case, evidence of a depraved mind that disregarded human life.

When it ended in a death, that's where you get second-degree murder.

 

[fstbusa]

(slimshady @ Jan. 28 2007,19

) I'm thinking of a court case the we had here in Durham County last year where a women was killed as a result of another loser running from the law in a stolen vehicle.
He hit her truck from the rear and caused the truck to overturn ejecting her onto the roadway.

He was charged with 2nd degree murder, careless and wreckless driving, dwi, possession of a stolen vehicle, driving while license revoked, felony speeding to elude arrest by the NCSHP. Get this the NCSHP wasnt even chasing the guy! It was a local sheriff's officer.

He was found guilty on ALL accounts by a jury of 12.

that is because he was directly related with her crashing. In this story the guy wasn't even near the officer when he lost control. I agree to the charge in that story.


totally different situations.

 

[captain]

the important thing for us all is that we can agree to disagree and move on... Just cause I dont agree with ya doesnt mean I dont like ya......

 

[DAB]

Just to clarify...

If I'm on foot running from a policeman and we both cross the road and
he's run over by an inattentive driver, am I guilty of murder?

- or if he falls down a manhole?
- or trips and hits his head?
- or has a heart attack?

What happens if the pursuing policeman isn't paying attention and hits a pedestrian/other motorist and kills them, is it still murder? Who's guilty?

Just asking...

Any legal eagles out there?

 

[fstbusa]

(captain @ Jan. 29 2007,06:28) the important thing for us all is that we can agree to disagree and move on... Just cause I dont agree with ya doesnt mean I dont like ya......

agreed. Have a good one cap

 

[Professor]

(DAB @ Jan. 29 2007,19:01) Just to clarify...

If I'm on foot running from a policeman and we both cross the road and
he's run over by an inattentive driver, am I guilty of murder?

- or if he falls down a manhole?
- or trips and hits his head?
- or has a heart attack?

What happens if the pursuing policeman isn't paying attention and hits a pedestrian/other motorist and kills them, is it still murder? Who's guilty?

Just asking...

Any legal eagles out there?

It depends on what you were doing to begin with and what state you do it in. How about this one. If you and a buddy go rob a liquer store and the clerk shots and kills your buddy. You can be charged with murder.

Law from Title 21

Homicide is murder in the second degree in the following cases:

1. When perpetrated by an act imminently dangerous to another person and evincing a depraved mind, regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual; or

2. When perpetrated by a person engaged in the commission of any felony other than the unlawful acts set out in Section 1, subsection B, of this act.


Homicide is manslaughter in the first degree in the following cases:

1. When perpetrated without a design to effect death by a person while engaged in the commission of a misdemeanor.

2. When perpetrated without a design to effect death, and in a heat of passion, but in a cruel and unusual manner, or by means of a dangerous weapon; unless it is committed under such circumstances as constitute excusable or justifiable homicide.

3. When perpetrated unnecessarily either while resisting an attempt by the person killed to commit a crime, or after such attempt shall have failed.

 

[MoosesBusa]

Oooh oooh ooooh I have a C R A Z Y idea. How about we DON't Steal other peoples property so we don't have to worry about going to jail for it!
I hope the guy that caused the officer to lose his life trips on the courthouse steps and shoves his nose thru his pea brain. Then we wouldn't have to keep this loser alive and well fed for the next 45 years!
People are all up in arms because this waste of oxygen is being held accountable for his actions. His actions caused the chase. The chase resulted in another person's death. Period. Had he been driving his own legally obtained vehicle there would have been no problem.
I hope we see more of these kind of decisions coming through the courthouses. For as long as I've been alive, the weak minded of this world have been allowing some really bad ideas to become the norm. this is the result. This asshat of a kid has made some really bad choices in his life perhaps because of a lack of common sense on what our society finds appropriate. We glamorize car chases on tv and everybody walks away. We make movies about a car thief and everybody loves the thief while hating the cops. We make video games that could be used to train the military and bullets and blood no longer mean anything. We sensationalize gang mentality and it becomes "Cool" to be "Gangsta" . According to TV, There are no consequences for killing people or stealing. Sex with your neighbors wife is no longer wrong, It's cool. Our moral base is being eaten away while we watch and say nothing. This idiot is the result.

Side note .... All those wannabe "Gangsta's" out there wearing their pants below their azzes are a joke. they don't even realize what they are representing. FYI, That craze started in the prisons. The inmates would get pants a size or two larger than needed to facilitate having anal sex easier and faster. Yeah, Remember THAT everytime you see a "Gangsta" running around having to hold his freaking pants up!
Happily, this idiot will get to experience the joy of being butt raped. Hopefully by a very well endowed angry man with an insatiable appetite for young punks.

 

[ks-waterbug]

Lots of good reading.... Professor, looks like I got it on the head! I just knew his past had to be tainted and the rap sheet just proved it! What a loser victimizing folks for many years and now his past catches up with him and he begs for mercy.... Typical Loser