2024 LE at Moore Mafias

[sixpack577]

I'm sorry but your argument seems based on having already pulled the radiator and headers and a ton of other crap.
Let's rephrase. Two bikes in road ready trim. Time with a stopwatch how long to simply get the valve cover off? Because when you say there's a ton of room above the valve cover, that's the opposite of what I've heard. It's really hard to imagine the Kawasaki having the shortest time.

How about this; can you adjust valves?
Have you taken both styles apart?
I am telling you my personal experience with both...I even provided pictures to support my points.
I also already told you the exhaust and radiator had nothing to do with the valve adjustment.
You are free to belive whatever you like.

 

[sixpack577]

I will absolutely concede that I had no idea you could get a ZX14R down to 507 lbs. I would have lost that bet. On the flip side, this being a motorcycle forum, the claim doesn't really hold water until we see pics. I'm not doubting you, I'm just bringing up the general rules. You seem to imply that you did raise yours. I was surprised that the wheelbase was the same on both bikes, and I'm curious whether you compared the rake and trail on the 14. I would guess both bikes need to be pretty similar there.
My bike is topped out in terms of my budget. I'm still kicking myself for getting those carbon rims, but on the other hand I love them so much I'm really not. The current performance matches nicely with my max speed on public roads. It genuinely is the perfect combination of potent agility for me, and while I will be taking it long distance I'm not even sure I'm going to track it. Maybe once, but it's kind of weird that after a few years without a bike, when I got the Gen 3 I should have been rusty and should have needed a track day to recalibrate. But on the contrary all the muscle memory seems to be working better than ever and I find myself surprisingly fast and smooth. *Or maybe I am honestly older and slower and in semi-denial about it. I never had a track bike and am a little sad about it.
I'm also under the impression that the 14 engine revs more freely than the Busa. And that it's kind of like adding the Brocks pipe, ie the freer the air flows the more you swing the power band to the right. Which is good for max power. But that sooner power feeling which I love may get a little sacrificed, ie the torque curve is not as strong down low. That's probably perfectly compensated by the 14's extra hundred cc. Does that sound right to you?
Tell us more about your flyweight 14 and how it handles. Have you ridden it at Phillips Island? That's a track I would love to try someday. *Never mind, I see the extended swing arm now. **Wait, if that aftermarket swing arm is indeed extended, that sort of torpedoes your argument about handling. But I will concede that there may be some flyweight ZX-14R track bike out there that could beat mine in a race track lap time. But again, such a bike would be a serious minority outlier.
What I really need from Australia is for these guys to come to California:
Wheelie Machine North America | We are coming to USA & Canada!
I was a deprived child and never had a dirt bike as a kid. The Busa is a big machine to learn to balance wheelie on and I am a little thin on the discipline to practice for hours and hours, and of course a little scared to dump the bike. I did Wheelie University in San Diego and it helped a lot (I highly recommend). I'm so close to ripping big seated power wheelies on the bike but the fear factor is holding me back. I think their machine would get me over the hump, (literally).

Learn To Wheelie A Motorcycle | Wheelie University | United States

The wheelie machine is nothing like the real thing.

 

[dcnblues]

How about this; can you adjust valves?
Have you taken both styles apart?
I am telling you my personal experience with both...I even provided pictures to support my points.
I also already told you the exhaust and radiator had nothing to do with the valve adjustment.
You are free to belive whatever you like.

I can, but haven't in decades. Not really relevant to my comment about the design, and you didn't answer the question.
Just the gen 1 busa. I have sat in my buddy's garage while he worked on his Kawasaki 12r bitching the whole time about it. He had a very difficult time getting the valve cover off and out.
Your personal experience involved hours of removing headers and radiators and everything else in front of the engine, and then saying access was easy.
I'm just saying you put an I-beam over the valve cover, you get a narrower bike, but you don't get away without consequences.
Maybe the 14 design made it easier. I assume it had to, if only a little.

 

[sixpack577]

I will absolutely concede that I had no idea you could get a ZX14R down to 507 lbs. I would have lost that bet. On the flip side, this being a motorcycle forum, the claim doesn't really hold water until we see pics. I'm not doubting you, I'm just bringing up the general rules. You seem to imply that you did raise yours. I was surprised that the wheelbase was the same on both bikes, and I'm curious whether you compared the rake and trail on the 14. I would guess both bikes need to be pretty similar there.
My bike is topped out in terms of my budget. I'm still kicking myself for getting those carbon rims, but on the other hand I love them so much I'm really not. The current performance matches nicely with my max speed on public roads. It genuinely is the perfect combination of potent agility for me, and while I will be taking it long distance I'm not even sure I'm going to track it. Maybe once, but it's kind of weird that after a few years without a bike, when I got the Gen 3 I should have been rusty and should have needed a track day to recalibrate. But on the contrary all the muscle memory seems to be working better than ever and I find myself surprisingly fast and smooth. *Or maybe I am honestly older and slower and in semi-denial about it. I never had a track bike and am a little sad about it.
I'm also under the impression that the 14 engine revs more freely than the Busa. And that it's kind of like adding the Brocks pipe, ie the freer the air flows the more you swing the power band to the right. Which is good for max power. But that sooner power feeling which I love may get a little sacrificed, ie the torque curve is not as strong down low. That's probably perfectly compensated by the 14's extra hundred cc. Does that sound right to you?
Tell us more about your flyweight 14 and how it handles. Have you ridden it at Phillips Island? That's a track I would love to try someday. *Never mind, I see the extended swing arm now. **Wait, if that aftermarket swing arm is indeed extended, that sort of torpedoes your argument about handling. But I will concede that there may be some flyweight ZX-14R track bike out there that could beat mine in a race track lap time. But again, such a bike would be a serious minority outlier.
What I really need from Australia is for these guys to come to California:
Wheelie Machine North America | We are coming to USA & Canada!
I was a deprived child and never had a dirt bike as a kid. The Busa is a big machine to learn to balance wheelie on and I am a little thin on the discipline to practice for hours and hours, and of course a little scared to dump the bike. I did Wheelie University in San Diego and it helped a lot (I highly recommend). I'm so close to ripping big seated power wheelies on the bike but the fear factor is holding me back. I think their machine would get me over the hump, (literally).

Learn To Wheelie A Motorcycle | Wheelie University | United States

You are asking to see pics of a scale weighing of his bike, which he may have posted in the past...but the old Toad has enough street cred here to be taken at his word...he's not bs'n you with a 20 lb heavier bike.
If you could read tires you could tell he rails corners on that zx14 too(and all his other bikes), and that it's suspension is set up extremely well.

 

[Bumblebee]

I can, but haven't in decades. Not really relevant to my comment about the design, and you didn't answer the question.
Just the gen 1 busa. I have sat in my buddy's garage while he worked on his Kawasaki 12r bitching the whole time about it. He had a very difficult time getting the valve cover off and out.
Your personal experience involved hours of removing headers and radiators and everything else in front of the engine, and then saying access was easy.
I'm just saying you put an I-beam over the valve cover, you get a narrower bike, but you don't get away without consequences.
Maybe the 14 design made it easier. I assume it had to, if only a little.

@c10 has something to say about adjusting the valves on the ZX14....and probably the ZX12 as well...

He's a connoisseur of Kawasaki as well...and very knowledgeable...

 

[Bumblebee]

You are asking to see pics of a scale weighing of his bike, which he may have posted in the past...but the old Toad has enough street cred here to be taken at his word...he's not bs'n you with a 20 lb heavier bike.
If you could read tires you could tell he rails corners on that zx14 too(and all his other bikes), and that it's suspension is set up extremely well.

Amen to that...

The 'toad has enough cred around here for certain......he cuts no corners and spares no expense.

Whatever he says it is the gospel truth...

 

[sixpack577]

I can, but haven't in decades. Not really relevant to my comment about the design, and you didn't answer the question.
Just the gen 1 busa. I have sat in my buddy's garage while he worked on his Kawasaki 12r bitching the whole time about it. He had a very difficult time getting the valve cover off and out.
Your personal experience involved hours of removing headers and radiators and everything else in front of the engine, and then saying access was easy.
I'm just saying you put an I-beam over the valve cover, you get a narrower bike, but you don't get away without consequences.
Maybe the 14 design made it easier. I assume it had to, if only a little.

No, pay attention.
I told you the Concours has the same basic frame design as the zx12 and zx14.
That all the fairings and trim that have to come off of the Concours...aren't even on the sportbikes.
And...Again...I had the radiator and exhaust off Anyway, they had Nothing to do with the valve adjustment.
That the picture was to show what the Kawasaki engine in that frame looked liked.
If you're buddy bitched about the job, that's fine too.
Again, belive whatever you want, as your points are not valid.

 

[dcnblues]

I couldn't give a gnat's fart about the valves. I was just commenting that one of the negatives of having a monocoque frame is that the valve cover is much less accessible. You disagree and prefer such a design. That's fine too.

*Edit: prosecution rests...

Back on another Busa, Concours 14 is gone | General Bike Related Topics

Sold my Conncours14 and bought another Gen2 Let the Build begin,,,

www.hayabusa.org

 

[dcnblues]

You can look at roadtoads new ride ,(starts at page 24 for the KTM ), to see where I got all my bikes weighed at this fully verified weigh station , with + or minus 5kg per ton / 1000kg . Verified , so you pay for services , and I guess you have to trust my word that all had topped off full tanks for weigh in and each ridden there . The lads signed off on checking for us , it was a well known station to take bikes too in Adelaide metro .
I had both bikes Woolich tuned , the Busa was running 18t / 47t gearing , the ZX14R standard . They both were stock motor internal , fitted same CT Meg light weight pipes , updated hd clutch springs and the Busa the centre ring . The 14 feels turbine smooth , not old school motor feel of the Busa , so it does feel less low end . But my Busa short gearing , ( thanks to @sixpack577 , who is also THE wheelie king ) , makes this feel even more so . The ZX14R was setup a lot like More Mafia 2020 super stock ZX14R motor /tune , stock , except pipe , filter , short wheelbase , ecu woolich tune , my thing also runs unleaded 98 pump gas . That bike of MM , has runs best 8.7 1/4 stock , it would smoke even Superbusa , amazing .
I did ride the Busa around Hidden Valley Raceway NT , 4 of us hired the track for 4 days to our selves , but honestly , I rode slow and safe to get bike back home intact .. as well as myself lol .

Dude next time just say I disagree and post a link to that thread. You wouldn't have heard another peep from me. Thanks for the good info about a great bike.

 

[dcnblues]

The wheelie machine is nothing like the real thing.

Well, the balance point will be.

 

[sixpack577]

Well, the balance point will be.

No, because there is no set balance point, that's why wheelies can be ridden at any height.
The machine also has the back wheel on spinning drums, like a dyno, and it is nothing like a solid road...nothing.
If you can ride a wheelie on a wheelie machine, great, but it means nothing towards riding a wheelie in reality.

 

[sixpack577]

I couldn't give a gnat's fart about the valves. I was just commenting that one of the negatives of having a monocoque frame is that the valve cover is much less accessible. You disagree and prefer such a design. That's fine too.

*Edit: prosecution rests...

Back on another Busa, Concours 14 is gone | General Bike Related Topics

Sold my Conncours14 and bought another Gen2 Let the Build begin,,,

www.hayabusa.org

The Prosecution is all over the place...
You cannot compare a Concours to a Busa, lmao...and I never did.
The 'service being easier on Busa vs a Concours' is absoloutely true...because you don't have a ton of plastic and fairings to remove to get to the valve cover. Plastic and fairings that have nothing to do with the zx12 or zx14.
I simply showed you a frame style, one that the Concours, zx12 and zx14 share in design, and I told you it wasn't bad at all, and that I thought they were easier for shim changes, as encouragement for you to do it yourself, vs the high price you complained about.
Yet you have a different perspective of what has been said throughout this thread.

 

[dcnblues]

Don't care about plastic, don't care about valves. If I had to do a valve job on a Kawasaki 12 or 14, it would be major surgery because of the monocoque frame design. Or you'd have to pay someone a lot of money to do it. Because of the frame design.
Wrapping the frame around the engine makes for a much easier valve job. You disagree, and will not concede the point. I don't care anymore.

 

[dcnblues]

No, because there is no set balance point, that's why wheelies can be ridden at any height.
The machine also has the back wheel on spinning drums, like a dyno, and it is nothing like a solid road...nothing.
If you can ride a wheelie on a wheelie machine, great, but it means nothing towards riding a wheelie in reality.

We disagree again. Just feeling the 560 lb machine tilting on the rear axis will provide invaluable muscle memory. Moving one's body, throttle control, and rear brake pressure. Practicing all of those on a Tipping Point while the drum simulates the road speed should help a great deal. But as I cannot speak from experience you could be right. And these guys are running a business that is pure scam, with hundreds of customers who didn't benefit at all. I'm sure you're just as correct about this as the other argument.

 

[c10]

I'm a 20 plus year member of the ZRXOA a Kawasaki forum , and we developed a sub forum for ZX14's and C14's . My years of experience , and skill set on ZX based engines has lead to many asking me to service ZX14 or C14 , and I have refused both . At a rally got suckered into ZX14 spark plug replacement , and what a horrible encounter.
My brother and I long time Kaw riders jumped ship , and went to the Busa vs anything Kawasaki had . Its been 20 plus years since my last ZX12 build / service , but we just pulled the engine on them it was that much easier to work on .
I'm the designer of the ZRX engine removal jig seen in these photos .

The only Kawasaki I have considered owning was the Ninja H2 SXE sport tour supercharged 1000 cc . I researched it greatly m, and with access to valvetrain with little fuss was appealing. What kicked it off the grid was insurance . $23xx a year with immaculate driving record . Busa was sub 1500 for a Gen 3 , and GSX1000GT $265 and the BMW I chose is $5xx

 

[sixpack577]

We disagree again. Just feeling the 560 lb machine tilting on the rear axis will provide invaluable muscle memory. Moving one's body, throttle control, and rear brake pressure. Practicing all of those on a Tipping Point while the drum simulates the road speed should help a great deal. But as I cannot speak from experience you could be right. And these guys are running a business that is pure scam, with hundreds of customers who didn't benefit at all. I'm sure you're just as correct about this as the other argument.

I "could be right".....LMAO!!!!
YOU...by your own admission, have Never even ridden a wheelie, and say that you are too scared to try...so that you think the wheelie machine will solve all of that.
People try wheelie machines for fun, that is all, because as said, it is Nothing like the real thing.
I told you this nicely, just as a heads up.
Yet, you disagree...fine.
I make mistakes, never claimed I didn't, I offered you advise based on my experiences...and, I am pretty humble dude too, but let me point something out to you.
Do you see my avatar?
Do you see that it is a guy riding a standup wheelie on a Gen2 Busa?
Do you know that guy is ME?!
Do you know that I have literally ridden thousands...Yes Thousands of miles on one wheel on sportbikes in the last 29 years. Add in some more miles of the 6 years on dirtbikes before that.
I can ride low wheelies, slow wheelies, 12 o'clocks, and have been 150mph on the back tire.
And I don't count BS power wheelies, I'm talking about an 8th mile, a quarter mile, 2 miles, whatever.
When You can do that...Then You can tell me about wheelies.
When You have the bikes, mods, and experience the ROADTOAD has...Then You can tell him that he doesn't know what he's talking about either.
Til then...I'de stay in my own lane...

 

[dcnblues]

You don't pay attention to what I write, put words in my mouth, and frankly you don't seem honest.
The wheelie University was a huge help, and I imagine the wheelie machine will be an effective shortcut to hours and hours of practice (but more importantly wear and tear on the bike, and risk of dumping it every time the front tire hits the road again). There are riders out there who are short on experience with lightweight bikes but who want to wheelie which is a problem when your bike is over 500 lbs. I was making banter with an Australian, and you criticized me for it.
Any third party would say that my comment about liking the Kawasakis with the exception of not wanting to pay for a $900 valve job has been more than validated. You like and prefer the monocoque frame and think that you can get a valve cover on it off faster than the Hayabusa. Maybe you're the guy who needs to stay in your lane.
And I'm still willing to put money down that I could have a quicker lap time on my bike than any ZX14 that is either heavier or has an extended swingarm, and let's face it that seems to be about 99% of them.
You don't get deference by being disingenuous, attacking others, or so egotistical you can't admit that you're making a losing argument.
I'm going to sign off now before I let my temper get the better of me.
PS I'm calling b******* on a 150 mph wheelie. Even to The Ghost Rider. I've been 150 mph, and the force of that wind is like a fire hose. Maybe maybe maybe somebody could lift that front tire an inch or two without flipping the bike, but that's not the kind of wheelie we're talking about is it? Any higher at 150 and I don't see how the bike doesn't flip. Which is why I think the wings on that TTS Superbusa are scary as hell. I've seen the Ghost Rider videos, I've seen impressive fast wheelies, but I don't think any of them were at 150 or more.

 

[dcnblues]

...we just pulled the engine on them it was that much easier to work on .

Yep. Thanks.

 

[dcnblues]

And I'm still willing to put money down that I could have a quicker lap time on my bike than any ZX14 that is either heavier or has an extended swingarm, and let's face it that seems to be about 99% of them.

To be clear, I think the Hayabusa pushes the limit of the wheels and tires optimized for liter bikes and even 600s. Add 100 lbs or more to those track bikes, and crunch the numbers, and the tires will still do the job and still be agile without going to larger dimensions, but I think the Hayabusa is at the edge of the envelope (and with the cost of faster wear). Any heavier, and it's my opinion you are outside of the high performance envelope of the tires. Which will cost you time around the track. Inarguably, you will have a motorcycle that is too heavy for a 17-in 120 front, so the question is what is that weight limit? I don't think Kawasaki Engineers were too concerned about lap times designing that bike, so they went with the much easier standard dimensions. But that average extra 40 lbs would, IMHO, hurt cornering performance in a way that the Hayabusa just barely gets away with.
Because it's in The Sweet Spot.

 

[ROADTOAD1340]

To be clear, I think the Hayabusa pushes the limit of the wheels and tires optimized for liter bikes and even 600s. Add 100 lbs or more to those track bikes, and crunch the numbers, and the tires will still do the job and still be agile without going to larger dimensions, but I think the Hayabusa is at the edge of the envelope (and with the cost of faster wear). Any heavier, and it's my opinion you are outside of the high performance envelope of the tires. Which will cost you time around the track. Inarguably, you will have a motorcycle that is too heavy for a 17-in 120 front, so the question is what is that weight limit? I don't think Kawasaki Engineers were too concerned about lap times designing that bike, so they went with the much easier standard dimensions. But that average extra 40 lbs would, IMHO, hurt cornering performance in a way that the Hayabusa just barely gets away with.
Because it's in The Sweet Spot.

Aren't the Gen 2 and Gen 3 Busa 260kg and 264kg wet , vs the ZX14R 265 kg or 269 kg wet for latest .