Afghanistan....

[jellyrug]

Nobody could know this, I trained special forces, they were at least dedicated and motivated..

As for the conventional forces, I had some faith in them but not a whole lot....did I or anyone I know think they would run away and desert in the face of the Taliban...no we didn't and couldn't....

Apparently Rumsfeld knew that almost from the beginning when he was still alive. The Afghanistan papers now published has evidence that each administration knew that, however they covered it up and painted a rosy picture to the public. Hate him or not, Trump was the first to accept reality, hence the approach to start talks with the Taliban.

I believe I posted a link regarding the Afghanistan papers earlier, go read it.

 

[Bumblebee]

Apparently Rumsfeld knew that almost from the beginning when he was still alive. The Afghanistan papers now published has evidence that each administration knew that, however they covered it up and painted a rosy picture to the public. Hate him or not, Trump was the first to accept reality, hence the approach to start talks with the Taliban.

I don't know....there was lots of speculation but nothing tangible...

I don't for one minute believe the US would so equip and waste lives training the ANA and ANP if they knew for a fact they would be an ineffective force...the US isn't in the business of giving away military hardware and tactics...that I know for a fact..

As a guy who was there and in the dirt, I can only report on what I know to be factual. I know our intelligence community was really hoping the ANA/ANP would hold the country together as a defense force.

As for Mr. Trump, he was looking at avenues to pull troops out of all the hot-spots, Afghanistan was just one of them...he also initiated a troop draw down everywhere else (Syria, Libya, Iraq, Germany, Japan, Korea, etc...).

 

[jellyrug]

I don't know....there was lots of speculation but nothing tangible...

I don't for one minute believe the US would so equip and waste lives training the ANA and ANP if they knew for a fact they would be an ineffective force...the US isn't in the business of giving away military hardware and tactics...that I know for a fact..

As a guy who was there and in the dirt, I can only report on what I know to be factual. I know our intelligence community was really hoping the ANA/ANP would hold the country together as a defense force.

As for Mr. Trump, he was looking at avenues to pull troops out of all the hot-spots, Afghanistan was just one of them...he also initiated a troop draw down everywhere else (Syria, Libya, Iraq, Germany, Japan, Korea, etc...).

In case you missed it, here it is again:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/investigations/afghanistan-papers/afghanistan-war-confidential-documents/

 

[Bumblebee]

In case you missed it, here it is again:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/2019/investigations/afghanistan-papers/afghanistan-war-confidential-documents/

Not certain I am 100% sold on what this rag has to say either...

I don't put all my faith in what the media has to say...I was there....I saw what my country was doing and what other countries were doing including the US.

If this were all true, it certainly makes the entire coalition look like a real bunch of incompetent imbeciles especially with what is happening these past couple weeks....to believe all these countries were in cahoots together with this information and then allow to happen what is currently happening is well.......unbelievable.

For the US to allow their equipment and weapons to knowingly fall into the hands of the Taliban is just not reality...there is no way I for one will not believe the US knew the ANA and ANP would fall and fall so quickly all the while leaving them out to dry like they did...

These same weapons platforms WILL be used against the US and it's allies (and other countries like China and Russia) and to think the US knowingly allowed this will raise quite a few questions which will demand hard answers. Depending on the response to these questions, it could allow the US to slide from the lime-light of the world stage...and it's leaders to be held accountable.

 

[fallenarch]

Everyone is focused on the ANA troops but that's only part of the problem. We could never stand up a reliable leadership in Afghanistan. Nothing positive can happen without some level of leadership that can be trusted to do the people's work. We can't be their government.

The number of Afghan people who helped us and want out goes up each day when the US gets incredible numbers of people out. The state department started telling Americans to get out of the country as early as Jan. Many of the people left simply didn't want to go and were caught out by how swiftly the ANA collapsed.

The media is amazing. They paint the chaos of those first days as our not being organized - not a crazed Afghan mob rushing the airport and us not wanting to just shoot them to gain order. Now that the image is cemented in history they are painting images of soldiers playing with Afghan kids in the middle of one of the great airlifts in history. Liberal Media?

 

[Bumblebee]

Everyone is focused on the ANA troops but that's only part of the problem. We could never stand up a reliable leadership in Afghanistan. Nothing positive can happen without some level of leadership that can be trusted to do the people's work. We can't be their government.

The number of Afghan people who helped us and want out goes up each day when the US gets incredible numbers of people out. The state department started telling Americans to get out of the country as early as Jan. Many of the people left simply didn't want to go and were caught out by how swiftly the ANA collapsed.

The media is amazing. They paint the chaos of those first days as our not being organized - not a crazed Afghan mob rushing the airport and us not wanting to just shoot them to gain order. Now that the image is cemented in history they are painting images of soldiers playing with Afghan kids in the middle of one of the great airlifts in history. Liberal Media?

Of course the leadership within the government is the main problem...Afghanistan is built on tribal leadership, the strongest war lord runs the others...before NATO stuck it's nose in there, the Taliban were the strongest....now they are again...

If the the imminent collapse of the Afghanistan government and defense force was known so long ago, there will international tribunals looking for answers as to why the ANA/ANP were so well equipped with very modern US weaponry which was not safe guarded from falling into the hands of the Taliban...

...and...if the state dept was serious about what they knew, there would have been an evacuation order of the embassies and contractors, not a suggestion to leave. If there was a strong suggestion for the Afghan nationals who allied themselves with the coalition to leave and they chose to stay...that should be their problem now and no coalition life should have been risked in their evacuation...

...but here we are....the fact this has been basically a rushed and someone disorderly extraction tells me it wasn't planned in advance...

 

[jellyrug]

Not certain I am 100% sold on what this rag has to say either...

I don't put all my faith in what the media has to say...I was there....I saw what my country was doing and what other countries were doing including the US.

If this were all true, it certainly makes the entire coalition look like a real bunch of incompetent imbeciles especially with what is happening these past couple weeks....to believe all these countries were in cahoots together with this information and then allow to happen what is currently happening is well.......unbelievable.

For the US to allow their equipment and weapons to knowingly fall into the hands of the Taliban is just not reality...there is no way I for one will not believe the US knew the ANA and ANP would fall and fall so quickly all the while leaving them out to dry like they did...

These same weapons platforms WILL be used against the US and it's allies (and other countries like China and Russia) and to think the US knowingly allowed this will raise quite a few questions which will demand hard answers. Depending on the response to these questions, it could allow the US to slide from the lime-light of the world stage...and it's leaders to be held accountable.

I don’t know Bee, I claim gross incompetence of all four our Administrations. The past three and the current.

Your view compares to riding around with a tire which has all the belts exposed and refusing to acknowledge that. Then being very surprised when the tire goes flat.

Arch is right about leadership, that however includes everyone as well as the military.

If we blame the Afghans for leadership, we are just as much to blame, for not correcting that during 20 years.

 

[Bumblebee]

I don’t know Bee, I claim gross incompetence of all four our Administrations. The past three and the current.

Your view compares to riding around with a tire which has all the belts exposed and refusing to acknowledge that. Then being very surprised when the tire goes flat.

Arch is right about leadership, that however includes everyone as well as the military.

If we blame the Afghans for leadership, we are just as much to blame, for not correcting that during 20 years.

My view must be shared by the leadership of many countries I suppose...

Regardless of how we got here, there will be some serious questions raised over this one-of that I can practically guarantee...

I will add.....we need not spill one more drop of blood from coalition fighters over Afghanistan....they as a people gave up so why would we as a people go in and fight their war for them....if you aren't willing to fight and die for what you believe in, people like the Taliban will be in charge.

 

[mark3evo]

its started

Afghanistan live updates: 13 dead including children in airport explosion, says Taliban; US troops 'wounded'; reports of 'suicide bomb'​

The Pentagon confirms an explosion at Kabul airport; US troops reportedly wounded in what Reuters have been told is a "suicide attack"; the "overwhelming majority" of people eligible have been evacuated from Kabul, says Boris Johnson.

 

[JeffSyh]

From the sound of most of the x navy seals that served in Afghanistan they all seem fairly pissed off and want to go back. Most saying if the rules of engagement were thrown out the window they could squish the Taliban in no time. Now I'm not miltary anything or know a damn thing about war it's just a consensus I've been hearing in the miltary community.

 

[mark3evo]

i'm sure the Russians may have thrown out rules of engagement back in 1980's but they got their bottomed spanked

conscripts or not

 

[JeffSyh]

i'm sure the Russians may have thrown out rules of engagement back in 1980's but they got their bottomed spanked

conscripts or not

Russia compared to U.S is fairly different, U.S has by far the best miltary in the world with the best trained troops and Intel with a dominate air force. I'd be fairly confident they could get the job done if the rule book was thrown out. This at the end of the day rest's on the president's shoulders whether he is right or wrong or even if it was impossible to avoid. He and his advisors need to think quick before more people die at the airport, or in Afghanistan...

 

[captain]

I will just inject this message right here in the middle...

We can't set a trusting government up in Afghanistan until we have trusted leaders in our own government. Without trust nothing works successfully! Not your country, your friendships, marriages or anything else. TRUST is when you know that the people in the know are doing the right thing or best thing... Hell, we don't even trust each other anymore...

Cap

 

[Bumblebee]

From the sound of most of the x navy seals that served in Afghanistan they all seem fairly pissed off and want to go back. Most saying if the rules of engagement were thrown out the window they could squish the Taliban in no time. Now I'm not miltary anything or know a damn thing about war it's just a consensus I've been hearing in the miltary community.

Well, as a former member of the military community and a veteran of many overseas deployments some of which was in Afghanistan...I can tell you the terrain favors the insurgents and it would take a battalion of SEALs quite a while to root them all out if possible...

There were up to 250,000 troops there with very high tech surveillance equipment and lots of very well orchestrated intel gathering and we are still at the start point....

There were several SEAL and other spec ops teams all operating in theater and although we had to follow ROEs, we had "carte blanche" when it came to engaging and neutralizing the insurgents.....even with all that we were unsuccessful....obviously....

 

[Bumblebee]

Russia compared to U.S is fairly different, U.S has by far the best miltary in the world with the best trained troops and Intel with a dominate air force. I'd be fairly confident they could get the job done if the rule book was thrown out. This at the end of the day rest's on the president's shoulders whether he is right or wrong or even if it was impossible to avoid. He and his advisors need to think quick before more people die at the airport, or in Afghanistan...

When Russia was in Afghanistan, the insurgents used WW2 bolt actioned weapons and rode horses and yet still kicked them out of the country..

For the time, the Russians had all the advanced tech including a robust air superiority, tanks and lots and lots of firepower...

If the US (and don't forget it's allies...many of which performed as well as the US did), were to go into Afghanistan with zero rules of engagement...a few things would happen...

a. total destruction of all property and infrastructure (power, water, etc)
b. death of countless civilians
c. in the end, the Taliban would still prevail....they are like cockroaches...

 

[Bumblebee]

its started

Afghanistan live updates: 13 dead including children in airport explosion, says Taliban; US troops 'wounded'; reports of 'suicide bomb'​

The Pentagon confirms an explosion at Kabul airport; US troops reportedly wounded in what Reuters have been told is a "suicide attack"; the "overwhelming majority" of people eligible have been evacuated from Kabul, says Boris Johnson.

...only the beginning.....sadly.....

If ISISK is getting involved...they have no rules of warfare....anything and everything goes....

We in the west are witnessing the early beginnings of a "failed state"

Be interesting if the Taliban actually engage the ISIS faction...

 

[mark3evo]

Sadly it has now been confirmed that a number of US personnel are now dead

 

[jellyrug]

When Russia was in Afghanistan, the insurgents used WW2 bolt actioned weapons and rode horses and yet still kicked them out of the country..

For the time, the Russians had all the advanced tech including a robust air superiority, tanks and lots and lots of firepower...

If the US (and don't forget it's allies...many of which performed as well as the US did), were to go into Afghanistan with zero rules of engagement...a few things would happen...

a. total destruction of all property and infrastructure (power, water, etc)
b. death of countless civilians
c. in the end, the Taliban would still prevail....they are like cockroaches...

WW2 strategies will be very effective, however civility will not allow it. If a nation knows they face either mass suicide, or surrender, they will surrender. The minority who prevails, will be eliminated by the majority. What happened to Japan is a prime example.

Will be interesting to see what the future holds.

 

[Bumblebee]

Sadly it has now been confirmed that a number of US personnel are now dead

Sad to have to spill yet more coalition (US) blood on that soil...

The worst part of all of this...it will only be getting worse...there will be a war between the Taliban and ISIS next...

 

[fallenarch]

Just hoping all of your friends and family in theater are safe.