Is Romney Really the best you all can do?

[MelodicMetalGod]

The problem with a flat tax is the if you take $2,000 in taxes from a family of 4 making $60,000, that's a significant life style hit. On the other hand if you take $20,000 from a family of 4 making $600,000, it's no big deal. A flat tax is therefore regressive and disproportionately hurts the poorer tax payer.

Taking $2k from a family making $60K isn't squat. Neither is taking $20K from someone making $600K. EVERYBODY HAS TO HAVE SKIN IN THE GAME or it WON'T WORK.

Exactly.

Let's make the math even simpler. 10% tax, not just on earned income but on ALL income. That's a 10% hit on EVERYONE. Not just the rich. Not just the poor. Not just the middle class. Everyone. Not asking billionaires to pay more b/c their wealthy and not allowing non-rich to pay less b/c their not wealthy. Everyone pays the same amount proportional to the income they are able to generate. Anything other than flat tax is some form of arbitration/manipulation of what a given individual will pay (i.e., not fair/double standards) and allows our government to obscure how much they collecting and/or crediting to whom and for what reasons.

If you're taking the same percentage from ALL forms of income and the tax code is transparent (flat tax) as opposed to the current obscenity (72,000 page US tax code, last I checked), then everyone is taking the SAME lifestyle hit. Earn more, pay more. Earn less, pay less. Simple, fair, transparent. And the transparent part is the first step to holding the government accountable for the tax revenue it collects.

 

[Tim99ws6]

Having the best health care that money can buy is of no value to those who can't buy it. Similarly, having free (read universal, not actually free) health care is of no value if it is not available when needed. This is perhaps the harshest reality of resources/economics in terms of supply not meeting demand. This issue may have no ideal answer, but I think we would all agree that we owe it to each other to work towards a solution that provides decent and available health care for everyone. This issue is only of concern for those who are not wealthy since the rich will always be able to manipulate any system to acquire whatever care they wish.

No one in this country is refused EMERGENCY health care. Its the recurring costs that are the problems.


I broke it down this way the other day. A standardized healthcare system for the whole obviously carries a burden of quality with it. While I can appreciate you or I saying "we owe it to our peers" to provide for one another universal healthcare I want to provide you with this scenario:


Say you are rich(money is not an option) and your child comes down with a severe illness that requires treatment. Would you, believing in the "system" bide your time with a government mandated equality driven healthcare system a somewhat reduced quality of care for your child...or would you take your son/daughter where ever in the world would be the best possible chance of survival/cure from the potential mortal illness?


I for one am a believer in capitalism at heart. That being said, I will/would carry my son ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD that provides the strongest probability of success for my own children and their health. If you would be ok with a "Open universal system", I applaud you. But my son will not be sitting beside yours in the government healthcare que waiting to be seen.

 

[Tim99ws6]

The problem with a flat tax is the if you take $2,000 in taxes from a family of 4 making $60,000, that's a significant life style hit. On the other hand if you take $20,000 from a family of 4 making $600,000, it's no big deal. A flat tax is therefore regressive and disproportionately hurts the poorer tax payer.

I also disagree with this. LIVE WITHIN YOUR MEANS.


If you do this, it is all fair on a flat tax! Why does it hurt the lower income family any worse? Who is to say the higher income family does not have far more extreme expense than the low income family. Ever gotten that pay raise and wondered where the hell it went? Too many times we allow our means to over run our income....cough cough gov't...haha.

they are both walking away with the same % of income left over at the end of the day. The difference is the 600K family is PAYING TAXES no matter if there's a flat tax or not. It's the low incomer's that need to balk up.

What's funny is taxes are so insignificant with the higher issue which is gov't spending(pensions, entitlments, gov't programs) that are the REAL back-breaker of the American budget. Fix those wrecks and you've really gotten a solvent economy!

 

[MelodicMetalGod]

No one in this country is refused EMERGENCY health care. Its the recurring costs that are the problems.


I broke it down this way the other day. A standardized healthcare system for the whole obviously carries a burden of quality with it. While I can appreciate you or I saying "we owe it to our peers" to provide for one another universal healthcare I want to provide you with this scenario:


Say you are rich(money is not an option) and your child comes down with a severe illness that requires treatment. Would you, believing in the "system" bide your time with a government mandated equality driven healthcare system a somewhat reduced quality of care for your child...or would you take your son/daughter where ever in the world would be the best possible chance of survival/cure from the potential mortal illness?


I for one am a believer in capitalism at heart. That being said, I will/would carry my son ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD that provides the strongest probability of success for my own children and their health. If you would be ok with a "Open universal system", I applaud you. But my son will not be sitting beside yours in the government healthcare que waiting to be seen.

I would absolutely exhaust all resources and options at my disposal to get the best care possible for my family. I'll restate my point that IF one has the money, the system is a non-issue because anything can be arranged if enough money is thrown around. However, I would present to you the other side of the coin. IF one does not enjoy the luxury of wealth, would you be accepting of system that did not provide the care needed simply because your income was not sufficient?

This is issue truly is a double-edged sword and, IMHO, the MOST challenging issue of all. I can't say that I have a great answer, only that the ideal would be to provide needed to care to everyone when they need it. The trouble, of course, it working out how such a solution would be funded.

 

[BlondeOnaBusa]

Actually one of his speach writers is a relative (not sure what a cousin on a brother in law's side is to me). They block out the speech based on a meeting where Obama sets out themes and issues. They research the information and fact check. Then he takes the draft and finishes it. aparently he is exceptionally fast and always knows exactly what he wants to say.

Exceptional speakers are almost always also exceptional thinkers. For example Clinton was very much into the details of policy and that made him very fluent when it came to speaking. Many people (on my side that is) say Reagan, who was also an exceptional speaker, was just an actor but he was in fact a very well read student of political thinking and American politics specifically. Lincoln was not appreciated as a speaker until way after his death. He was an example of a poor speaker but an exceptional intellectual and writer.

When you get right down to it, speaking is the biggest stick a president carries in the effort to lead the country and impress American policy at home and abroad.

BTW: If you think this country is not better off than it was in 2008 when Obama got it from Bush you are on crack and completely denying all facts. Are you aware that Obama's job growth performance is better than both Bushes and Reagan's first term?

My husband and son had jobs in 2008, can't say that now. My family was WAY better off 4 yrs ago. Jobs are not as easy to find as some would have you think.

 

[Easy E]

Everybody always complaining about the people who need Govt support. Do you really think that the poor want to be poor and depnd on the govt? NOOO. There are some who take advantage but the majority are hard working people who have had really bad luck or fell upon hard times. Let's give this people a chance(education) and see what happens. In other words don't give them the FISH Teach them how to fish for themselves. I grew up poor in the ghettos of New York and if it were not for the govt grants I received for college tuition and books I would not be a Successful CPA today. That investment in me(or how others put it "a Hand out") has paid huge dividends in the fact that I contribute positivily to society. Including paying my taxes. But you know every one cant be rich. Every one cant be poor. Being poor SUCKS, Getting Handout SUCKS! Don't make it sound that people who get govt assistance are living high on the hog and have a good life. They don't. There are good people and bad people in all classes and income level. Lazy people who take advantage of the govt and Rich people who also take advantage of the govt, by not paying there fair share. That's all im saying

 

[zukracer]

Seems to me that everyone is focused on a symptom of the problem and not the cause of the problem as far as the tax argument vs economic recovery. Americans as a whole have become entirely too caught up with the lure of easy money and the banks/credit card agencies/govt and anyone else that establishes credit is to blame at least partly. There are problems with the government spending that we'll likely never solve. They have "balanced the budget" many many times and yet we have had a deficit for as long as I've been alive and likely will long after I'm dead. The issue I see is that the American people's budgets, for the most part, are just as f'd up as the federal government's. People live entirely too far beyond their means and through whatever life decisions either accept or are forced to find sources of money that they really can't afford to payback to begin with.

For the record and as a segway into my rant , a flat tax doesn't hurt anyone as long as they are taxed at the correct rate. Have it so that you can get an exception and save a point or two if you have X dependents perhaps but certainly there would need to be a limit on that too otherwise people just pop out how ever many SSNs as dependents and never pay tax. It cannot hurt the poor or the rich if you understand that its just how it works going into it. People have to live within their means, thats how we got to this point and that's the only way we will get beyond it. The debt Americans carry is amazing and you can slice and dice the politicians all you want but its not the taxes that bring us down its the credit cards and their interest rates.

Want to really help get things moving in the right direction again? Find a way to get Americans back to work, setup a program that repays a person's debt by deductions (pre tax even) from their checks. Limit revolving debt to an acceptable percentage of an individual's income. Limit their entire debt structure to a fixed percentage of their income. Help people save by creating some type of "rainy day fund" that is not like a 401k with fees/penalties to touch the money. Once American's are substantially out of debt, you'll see the economy right itself pretty quickly. Until then we are all slaves to the credit mongers as long as we carry any credit debt.

Look back at the 1930s-60s. The economy was doing good and people didn't have these options to live excessively beyond their means. I'm just as guilty as anyone with the credit cards, etc but I've paid my way out of it almost completely and really only use mine now for work related travel. Its like having a million pound monkey taken off your back knowing that what you have each pay check is yours. And I think that's the financial independence we need to strive for here for all Americans.

No one will ever set forth such a program or system in the govt. Not one elected official will go to market with this in their strategy book. And not one of you can argue against the validity of being debt free as a great way to live. The only way to achieve this is with people taking ownership of their own lives and doing what is right for their situation day in and day out. Too many people want to be spoon fed how to live, which to me is no way to live. If they did not have to worry about having 10 or 20 hands out when their checks hit their banks I think most folks could manage to stick to a budget and whatever the effective tax rate they are hit with will have less impact than the constant sways in monthly fees/charges they see today because they are balancing their day to day with various credit cards they cant afford to begin with. If we all had to get our credit cards from Vinny the loan shark down at the local 7-11, everyone would pay on time or we'd need a hugely better health care system, focused on joint and soft tissue damages

 

[zukracer]

ps I enjoyed the Org so much better when there was no political crapola allowed

 

[skydivr]

Everybody always complaining about the people who need Govt support. Do you really think that the poor want to be poor and depnd on the govt? NOOO. There are some who take advantage but the majority are hard working people who have had really bad luck or fell upon hard times. Let's give this people a chance(education) and see what happens. In other words don't give them the FISH Teach them how to fish for themselves. I grew up poor in the ghettos of New York and if it were not for the govt grants I received for college tuition and books I would not be a Successful CPA today. That investment in me(or how others put it "a Hand out") has paid huge dividends in the fact that I contribute positivily to society. Including paying my taxes. But you know every one cant be rich. Every one cant be poor. Being poor SUCKS, Getting Handout SUCKS! Don't make it sound that people who get govt assistance are living high on the hog and have a good life. They don't. There are good people and bad people in all classes and income level. Lazy people who take advantage of the govt and Rich people who also take advantage of the govt, by not paying there fair share. That's all im saying

There is NO Fun in being poor. The problem is our current system ENCOURAGES it.

Easy E, welcome to the Republican Party; and in fact the Tea Party - You FISHED when TAUGHT To. You are the guy I don't mind helping, as you were willing to HELP YOURSELF and make something of yourself out of the investment that my tax dollars made in you - mindful that the government didn't pay a PENNY of my education, that my parents paid in full for it ON TOP of yours, and your payback is the same taxes that I pay. But, even then, that's ok.

But, and you'd have a hard time denying, that there is soooo much waste, fraud and abuse in some of these programs, made even easier by the 'edicts' of this administration to bypass requirements and paperwork particularly in the foodstamp and welfare programs, that it makes it a VERY BITTER pill for us who are paying to swallow when we are asked to contribute "MORE of our fair share"

So, are we willing to also tighen the regs regarding food stamps, Unemployment and Welfare Fraud? Right now, if caught defrauding both, most people are sent to a collection agency (so if they never intended to pay in the first place, not likely now and the Govt never gets it's money back for those truly in need). If someone is caught in unemployment fraud, AND, if they get rehired and then let go again, they AGAIN get to collect benefits WITHOUT collecting on the previous balance they stole. If you have a real need, you get help; if you are a thief or you take advantage of the program, you should be OUT.

Is your party ready to publicly support THIS to do THEIR part?:

Food stamps: Fresh vegtables, meat (not the "good stuff); milk, bread, beans and rice, salt and sugar. Baby Formula. No processed foods, no soft drinks, no chips, cookies, ect. I'm SICK of watching people with food stamps eat BETTER than me paying for it out of MY Pocket.

Welfare and food stamp fauud: You are done with the program. Do you need a cell phone and 3 HDTV's in your house and still collect benefits? NO. It seems that the idea of 'basic susbsistenance assistance' went out the door a long time ago.

 

[Easy E]

There is NO Fun in being poor. The problem is our current system ENCOURAGES it.

Easy E, welcome to the Republican Party; and in fact the Tea Party - You FISHED when TAUGHT To. You are the guy I don't mind helping, as you were willing to HELP YOURSELF and make something of yourself out of the investment that my tax dollars made in you - mindful that the government didn't pay a PENNY of my education, that my parents paid in full for it ON TOP of yours, and your payback is the same taxes that I pay. But, even then, that's ok.

But, and you'd have a hard time denying, that there is soooo much waste, fraud and abuse in some of these programs, made even easier by the 'edicts' of this administration to bypass requirements and paperwork particularly in the foodstamp and welfare programs, that it makes it a VERY BITTER pill for us who are paying to swallow when we are asked to contribute "MORE of our fair share"

So, are we willing to also tighen the regs regarding food stamps, Unemployment and Welfare Fraud? Right now, if caught defrauding both, most people are sent to a collection agency (so if they never intended to pay in the first place, not likely now and the Govt never gets it's money back for those truly in need). If someone is caught in unemployment fraud, AND, if they get rehired and then let go again, they AGAIN get to collect benefits WITHOUT collecting on the previous balance they stole. If you have a real need, you get help; if you are a thief or you take advantage of the program, you should be OUT.

Is your party ready to publicly support THIS to do THEIR part?:

Food stamps: Fresh vegtables, meat (not the "good stuff); milk, bread, beans and rice, salt and sugar. Baby Formula. No processed foods, no soft drinks, no chips, cookies, ect. I'm SICK of watching people with food stamps eat BETTER than me paying for it out of MY Pocket.

Welfare and food stamp fauud: You are done with the program. Do you need a cell phone and 3 HDTV's in your house and still collect benefits? NO

No thank you to welcoming me to the republican party I am my own party. The party of COMMON SENSE.. I agree with getting rid of all the abuse and fraud that goes on totally. But I don't want to throw out the baby with the bath water. Let's give those that are worthy a chance.

 

[skydivr]

No thank you to welcoming me to the republican party I am my own party. The party of COMMON SENSE.. I agree with getting rid of all the abuse and fraud that goes on totally. But I don't want to throw out the baby with the bath water. Let's give those that are worthy a chance.

Then, we can count on your vote in November? ???

The Dems will throw neither the baby or the bathwater out and therefore the house rots from the inside - and you know it.

 

[jellyrug]

The Honda CBR1100XX was the best motorcycle ever made. Period.

I don't like Kawasaki's.

 

[Gpmo]

Flat Tax? If you'd be a fan of the Flat tax, then welcome back to the Republican Party and I'd expect your vote, because the Tea Party is all about a FLAT TAX (unless you are going to immediately waiver 47% of the population from it). You may be right as they've gotten off track, but so have the Dems with Code Red, repeal of DADT, etc. etc. IF the most important issue is the fiscal survival of the US, then you are going to have to filter out all the other mouseturds that the parties are polevaulting over and make a choice, and it sure as heck isn't the liberals.

See and if the tea party hadnt gotten off track they would for sure be getting my votes. But their tax and budget balancing ideas have been destroyed by the rest. I can't vote in socially conservative or religiously conservative politicians. Also I do believe in some entitlements. People need help sometimes and I don't believe in just blindly cutting things. They have gotten so fanatical that they don't look at the big picture.

Of course you are also right about the Dems getting so flipping off track. They aren't any better. They will entitle us as a nation right into poverty. There is no balance there anymore either.

But when looking at the original point I really do feel there had to be a better option than Romney. The republicans had to have a better option. And so did the democrats. If it came to only two choices, Romney or Obama.. I would have to vote Obama. Romney will talk big but in the end he won't do anything for the working class or the poor. And his horrible demeanor will look terrible on us as a country and leaders. Then his mouth will get us into another war since he has no concept of foreign relations.

I truly believe Romney couldn't care less about the American populace. I think he would rather spit on us than talk. Obama while not getting things right at least is trying and I think he give a crap.


Another thing to look at is the recession which Obama contrary to talking heads, did not create . This was caused by big company's with lack of over site. Greedy wall street and corporate interest. Very successful business men just like Romney. His prowess is the same business prowess that put this country right where it is.

Oh I'm better off now than I was 4 years ago. I've gotten three raises a promotion buying a house, wife finished grad school. In the last 4 years we went from a 5% saving rate to a 30% savings rate and i could lose my job and pay my bills for more than 6 months if I couldn't find work. With out seeking help. Yes I'm better off. My friends are in the same boat as me. To be fair though we in Colorado have not been hit as hard as other places.

 

[dk55belair]

Good thing about a flat tax would be on consumption, so If my lifestyle involves me spending $1000 a month or $10,000 a month, the tax is going to involve paying more if you spend more.

It would help with "under the table" workers having to pay tax as they spend and would eliminate them not paying taxes. And if it works right, then it would eliminate multiple taxation and lower prices and cost of production. I dont know that Romney supports flat tax or not.

 

[Tufbusa]

Okay Arch, answer me this: Is there more people working today than there were when the Chosen One took office?

I know you'll use some prerecorded answer from the Rachel Maddow show so let me help you out a tad. NO! This president has not created one single net job. Not frickin ONE!

So why on God's Green Earth would anyone with an IQ over 60 want more of the same? In my view, I think we should give the guy that actually has some experence at creating jobs a chance since he is the only alternative we have to "More of the Same"! Make Sense?

 

[dk55belair]

I have a friend who is doing really well in Obama's presidency. He repossesses mobile homes and they are covered up.

I have been fairly busy with driving by homes and giving the banks a value before they foreclose on the people. There are ways to prosper in a recession....lol

 

[fallenarch]

My husband and son had jobs in 2008, can't say that now. My family was WAY better off 4 yrs ago. Jobs are not as easy to find as some would have you think.

That's really unfortunate and I wasn't going to respond because I didn't want to seem uncaring (remember I'm a liberal). But that's just one family. The fact is Obama's job creation record is pretty good since about mid-2009. The right wing thought Obama's record was going to be a good place to attack him but that hasn't panned out. I was so happy when they smacked it down at the convention and said we aren't running from our record, it's as good or better than what Republicans have done.

Its' amazing that the DNC had every living Democratic President represented at the convention and the republicans were hiding all of theirs. That is very telling about how successful the Republicans have been at running the country. You all can call me ignorant or stupid or whatever but thems the facts, goggle it!

 

[fallenarch]

Okay Arch, answer me this: Is there more people working today than there were when the Chosen One took office?

I know you'll use some prerecorded answer from the Rachel Maddow show so let me help you out a tad. NO! This president has not created one single net job. Not frickin ONE!

So why on God's Green Earth would anyone with an IQ over 60 want more of the same? In my view, I think we should give the guy that actually has some experence at creating jobs a chance since he is the only alternative we have to "More of the Same"! Make Sense?

The problem is Romney's experience is in creating jobs for Chinese. How stupid is it to say on one hand that government doesn't creat jobs and on the other hand say you need a president who has experience creating jobs???? Running a government is not like running a business, not even remotely.

All forecasts say that with no changes in policy there will be 12,000,000 jobs created in the next 4 years. Guess how many jobs Romney is promising? Yup, 12,000,000! The guy is basically telling you he isn't going to do anything.

 

[dk55belair]

Hey Arch,

Guess who used our money to send jobs overseas, since you brought it up.

Obama Used Stimulus Tax Dollars To Create Jobs Overseas

 

[dk55belair]

My 24 year old will be at the bash and glad to share how he has lost his job in December and had to move back home and pay his $25,000 of students loans back on $10 hour. Good firepit chat.....lol