My Beloved O-Ren Has An Issue...

[bitabur]

It seems like 05BusaLe probably has the right idea, but I keep thinking that it started right after you did a valve adjust...

are you sure you didn't put one of the cams back on the wrong tooth of the timing chain... it would make sense to me that at low speed one set of valves could be closing too early, not letting the engine run right.... at higher speed the engine might be able to flow enough before this becomes an issue b/c it's flowing faster, then when it's cold/not lubed up the valves are dropping just a bit slower, masking the problem, but only when it's cold.

Hey, this might be totally impossible, but it's just a theory, and like I said, 05BusaLe is probably right, especially if you haven't noticed any performance change.

 

[JINKSTER]

(pward76 @ May 26 2007,18:52) Can you swap the ECU with a known good one?  That would rule out the ECU having gone bad  (or confirm it)

dear god...how much is an ecu?

 

[JINKSTER]

(05BusaLe @ May 26 2007,18:54) Fuel pump heats up and the pressure drops! Then engine dies!
Just like all the GN's I have changed a fuel pump on!
Confirm this by hooking up a fuel pressure gauge and watching it as the bike heats up!
If you dont have a gauge then fill tank with gas and run bike up to operating temp with the tank lifted up (keep the bottom of tank cool use a small fan to help) See if it stays running?
This is just my best guess  

wtf is a "GN" and?..dear god....how much is a fuel pump?

and if it is the fuel pump?...I'll be checking into an "external" replacement.

 

[busa_bill]

I don't know a lot about this bike, just trying to help you think through it. If it was doing fine before the fuel line blew off, it should be something that happened as a result. Dunno if an EFI fuel pump can be damaged by going from 40 something psi to almost zero pressure in an instant. Ruptured diaphragm? What sensors are in close proximity to the area where the fuel sprayed? Like above post, I was thinking coolant temp sensor.

Good luck!

 

[Over_Easy]

Likely due to too much tinkering w/ O-Ren. Seems like you're coming up with some mod variation every month. Maybe you should just design your own motorcycle from scratch, Bill.

 

[JINKSTER]

(busa_bill @ May 27 2007,02:07) I don't know a lot about this bike, just trying to help you think through it. If it was doing fine before the fuel line blew off, it should be something that happened as a result. Dunno if an EFI fuel pump can be damaged by going from 40 something psi to almost zero pressure in an instant. Ruptured diaphragm? What sensors are in close proximity to the area where the fuel sprayed? Like above post, I was thinking coolant temp sensor.

Good luck!

I was wondering the same bill...i'm sure having a fuel line blow off while under presure ain't a good thing for the fuel pump.

 

[JINKSTER]

(Over_Easy @ May 27 2007,02:29) Likely due to too much tinkering w/ O-Ren.  Seems like you're coming up with some mod variation every month.  Maybe you should just design your own motorcycle from scratch, Bill.

uhh..yeah..right..thanks for your invaluable help...feels so good to kick a guy whens he's down..doesn't it.

 

[JINKSTER]

Well folks?....the good news is...after removing the brand new NGK CR8E sparkplugs i just installed (during the valve adjust job) that....

i'm fairly d@mn certain that it AIN'T a fuel pump issue!

I removed the plugs to re-check and close the gaps down to the min of the .028-.031 spec as too much gap is yet another of 12 possibles for troubleshooting a poor or irratic idle....and during my under the tank travels?..i also noticed several dried up and loose vacuum line connections..and yesterday i completetly replaced the hose and t's for the t-body vac line manifold and also noticed that the line going from the center t too the vacuum sensor was a tad on the loose side AT the vacuum senspr...to make matters worse?..the nipple on the vacuum senspr doesn't even have a barb...as a matter of fact?...it's "Conical"...which actually facilitates a loose vacuum line getting even looser..and if it comes off?..it kills your engine..like right now.

So?..my revised plan of action is to clean and re-set the sparkplug gaps and maybe even apply some adhesive/sealant to the vacuum line going to the conical nipple on the vac sensor...then re-synch the t-bodys and pray that what's happened here is this...

A loose vacuum line connection sent an err'ed signal to the ecu which then dumped gratuitous amounts of fuel thereby fouling out my new plugs..and i've been chasing my tail over fouled plugs...and at this point?...i'd love to feel that foolish..cause i'm needing to get in the wind...bad!

L8R, Bill.

 

[Red05]

Bill, those plugs look rich fouled, so your loose vacuum line hypothesis may be right on,as if the vacuum sensor was causing an over rich condition it would make sense that the bike would run better cool. If, God forbid, they foul again, there's a pretty simple chart on page 5-8 in the service manual for checking the coolant temp sensor with an ohmmeter. Let's hope you're "in the wind", instead

 

[turbojonn]

I was going to suggest checking your map sensor line, but it looks like you got the problem sorted. Good luck.

 

[Relsek]

(Over_Easy @ May 27 2007,08:29) Likely due to too much tinkering w/ O-Ren.  Seems like you're coming up with some mod variation every month.  Maybe you should just design your own motorcycle from scratch, Bill.

+1

 

[JINKSTER]

(Relsek @ May 27 2007,05:47)

(Over_Easy @ May 27 2007,08

) Likely due to too much tinkering w/ O-Ren.  Seems like you're coming up with some mod variation every month.  Maybe you should just design your own motorcycle from scratch, Bill.

+1

oh...looky there..."both"..my pals from "central" teaming up to quote and +1 each other....and yes kevin...

























i still hate fords!

L8R, Bill.

 

[dadofthree]

Good luck on the problem, hope this helps............

 

[JINKSTER]

Update: Well folks?....i soaked my plugs in seafoam (which btw is great for carbon removal) then used a nylon brush to finish the job..then ran some 400grit through the electrode ends to freshen'em up and checked/gapped at .029 and re-installed themin like new condition...then fired ORen up and the results are in...as follows...

She fired up great...a few warm-up seconds later i gently blipped the throttle a few times and witnessed a few light puffs of black smoke...then a minute or so later?..and 1/4 way up on the temp gage the light puffs of black smoke cleared up and she'd rev to the ceiling like a biotch with a clean sounding exhaust note but the idle degraded again...then as temps neared normal op temps?...she began stumbling badly again and a minute or two later coffed and stalled herself dead at an idle.

Pulled the plugs again and all 4 are just as soot'ed and black again as the first time i yanked thenm this morning...and this is with new rubber vac lines and well synch'ed t-bodys...i've tried it with both the gipro atre and the pciiiusb connected and disconnected...tps still shows itself as adjustable and in proper adjusted position...and i wanna say that all the vacuum issues have been addressed but it's not looking that way..and the fuel pump is apparently do'in one hell of a fine job...iat sensor is back to stock and laying on the frame (as it should be)...and my last resort horror thought here is..."Am i still a tooth off on the exhaust side now?"..but i checked and rechecked the arrows and the bike was running fine after the valve adjust job...before the fuel line blew...and apparently?..."after the fuel line blew"..."is"....when this problem cropped up..so the results are?...i need more "results"...maybe the blown fuel line caused a bad vac sensor or damper diaphram..best i can guess at at the moment....anyone else?

T.I.A. & L8R, Bill.

 

[nitrousjunkie]

(busa_bill @ May 27 2007,19:07) I don't know a lot about this bike, just trying to help you think through it. If it was doing fine before the fuel line blew off, it should be something that happened as a result. Dunno if an EFI fuel pump can be damaged by going from 40 something psi to almost zero pressure in an instant. Ruptured diaphragm? What sensors are in close proximity to the area where the fuel sprayed? Like above post, I was thinking coolant temp sensor.

Good luck!

Stock fuel pressure is 43 psi.

 

[Red05]

Bill, did you take an ohmmeter reading of the coolant temp sensor? If the reading doesn't change as the engine warms up, the result would be rich at operating temps, possibly rich enough to foul the plugs again....look for 2.45 kohms @ 70 degrees, .811 kohms @ 112 degrees, .318 kohms at 170....

 

[JINKSTER]

(Red05 @ May 27 2007,08:37) Bill, did you take an ohmmeter reading of the coolant temp sensor? If the reading doesn't change as the engine warms up, the result would be rich at operating temps, possibly rich enough to foul the plugs again....look for 2.45 kohms @ 70 degrees, .811 kohms @ 112 degrees, .318 kohms at 170....

no but...now it looks like that's where i'm headed...i'm studying the shop manual now to read up on how to check/inspect the vac & temp sensors...which sorta sux as if ones bad?...that puts an immediate end to any riding on my 3 day weekend..but?..i guess it'll be making some progress at sorting this out.

 

[fasttoys1]

Worked on a suburban for a guy at work sometime ago, Spudley and some others may be right on. Never thought of it. His was newer, fuel inj. ran great, than ran rough, than flooded out. Hooked up the scanner, bad temp. sensor. Replaced it and cured, no problems since. Hoping that is it cause it is a cheap fix to. Either way hope you getta.

 

[Spudley]

The air sensors, and not in this case an o2 sensor,  tell the ecu to make the micro adjustments.  The coolant temp sensor tells it to make the macro adjustments that keep the stoichiometric balance, in balance.  I'd just like to see Bill get this sorted out so he can use one remaining day.  Remember, it wouldn't spin to infinity, or where ever float is, if it was a tooth off, you'd notice something, or have hurt something by now.  If the TPS is signaling closed at closed-idle position then fine, but I'd still check the continuity of the switch.  Just because it "clicks" when you barely move the throttle linkage, doesn't mean contact is being made.  The ecu needs that contact to know it can step down another step on the map.  Sensor, internal, contacts get worn and loose with a lot of plugging and unplugging.  

It doesn't sound like there's anything wrong with the fundamental rebuilding of components.  You're flowing fuel, by the looks of the plugs, it's loading up at idle.  Now what is telling it to load up at idle

.  Injector pulse ?, is controlled by ?, and what tells ?, how much to keep the injectors open ?.  You've validated vacuum, everywhere

.....check all the hoses including the ones that aren't hooked to the throttles.......you've validated that you're getting enough fuel.........enough to foul the plugs, and feed the motor's needs at high rpms, that's enough, or it would cough and spit, so without metering the fuel pressure we're assuming it's good.  

I'm narrowing it down, in theory of course, as the coolant temp sensor gets warm it varies, much like an o2 sensor in temperature, and gives off different amounts of resistance, or voltage depending on sensor.  It is directly connected to the ecu which is sending the pulse signals to the FI.  Validate coolant temp sensor in a pan of hot water with the specs already given.  Confirm continuity from coolant temp connector to ecu entry or pin connector.  Do the same with TPS and wiring connectors.  

One or the other, IMO, you got spark (plenty), you're getting fuel (too much w/ throttles closed), no vacuum leaks (I'm trusting you), motor's statically right, so that's what you've got.  Bill, you gotta move closer so I can swing by and cut your tear down, build back time in half.....ya know I'm checking continuity for TPS function while you're boiling a sensor and checking resistances......that sort of stuff.  Somethin's loading your plugs up.  "That's all".

Now get out there SUPERWRENCH and solve this mystery so I ain't thinking about your motor while I'm watching Shrek tonight at the movies........... GET BUSY BRAH !!!!

 

[POSR]

I would bet a nickle that when you ran the valves that you didn't leave enough clearance. Does the manual say adjust warm or cold? If you adjusted them cold and the book calls for warm they are too tight and you are essentially just dumping fuel in cuz they never close all the way. That is why you only notice it when the motor gets hot. The valve train expands to take up the clearance when cold. Seems to me that is the only thing that has changed is your valve job. If you are getting no codes and she reves good cold then it is not computer related and not related to fuel pressure or mechanical injector function. It MUST be a mechanical condition this assuming that your lines and hose are hooked up properly.

When thinking about spark plugs fouled or perfect or otherwise always realize that their condition is strictly symtomatic of what is really going in the motor. Maybe this helped.