Very quickly.
Russia and Ukraine
- Thread starter Bumblebee
- Start date
The nato pact does not demand military response if a member nation is attacked.
I get a bit of a chuckle at the idiocy of people sometimes.....
There is shock that Ukraine is launching drone attacks into Russia and hitting Moscow.....the west has supplied Ukraine with advanced weapon systems than many other countries including some western NATO allies doesn't possess yet thinks that Ukraine will just use these systems within Ukraine.....
Everyone forgets Ukraine is not part of NATO and has been part of a political tug of war between the US and Russia for decades...and still is.....
Perhaps the resolve of the Russian people has gone the way it has in the west....but if it has remained as fierce as it was in WW2, attacking the Russian motherland will only strengthen that resolve and make the invasion of Ukraine justified in the eyes of the Russian citizens...Ukraine has to walk this fine line and it could either go for or against them...
There is shock that Ukraine is launching drone attacks into Russia and hitting Moscow.....the west has supplied Ukraine with advanced weapon systems than many other countries including some western NATO allies doesn't possess yet thinks that Ukraine will just use these systems within Ukraine.....
Everyone forgets Ukraine is not part of NATO and has been part of a political tug of war between the US and Russia for decades...and still is.....
Perhaps the resolve of the Russian people has gone the way it has in the west....but if it has remained as fierce as it was in WW2, attacking the Russian motherland will only strengthen that resolve and make the invasion of Ukraine justified in the eyes of the Russian citizens...Ukraine has to walk this fine line and it could either go for or against them...
I believe it does. Article 5 as I recall
It is indeed Article 5 response...
It triggers a response which is not automatically military. There are options within it. Each member decides on their own their level.
NATO’s Article 5 Collective Defense Obligations, Explained
Here’s how a conflict in Europe would implicate U.S. defense obligations.
I think this wording would allow other nations to not engage with military force but in a support role instead....in order to avoid an escalation of the conflict...It triggers a response which is not automatically military. There are options within it. Each member decides on their own their level.
NATO’s Article 5 Collective Defense Obligations, Explained
Here’s how a conflict in Europe would implicate U.S. defense obligations.www.brennancenter.org
For instance if someone attacked the US for instance, they have a strong enough defensive response that they wouldn't need a fellow NATO member to engage....
Article 5 was engaged for the invasion of Iraq and Afghanistan.....but not all NATO countries participated in those invasions...
I doubt sleepy would do anything if Poland gets attacked. That is unless they are praying for it.
I think the US would react first like in most things....with Biden in charge or not....
Every war that has started in Europe has only gotten bigger. This one will be no different.
The war in the former Yugoslavia was able to be contained and it could have very easily escalated into a big, ugly, bloody war if it got out of containment....lots of surrounding countries were frothing to get involved if the right fuse was lit.
Russia is the invader and the surrounding countries identify this, the countries aligned with Russia will behave themselves as the NATO threat is present and Russia is weak right now...so they won't have much to support a rogue Russian aligned nation if that nation decides to get involved..
More and more videos like this are surfacing...
Western tech is definitely in the hands of China and are being studied and probably cloned..
I've watched a few of the tactical videos coming out of Ukraine and have noted many armored vehicles operating in "lone wolf" operations and not in a combined arms profile...when used in such a profile all arms cover each other in an advance making the chance of taking out an armored vehicle much lower. Drones and infantry seek out anti-air/armor weapons systems and take them out before the advance of the tanks...this doesn't seem to be happening in Ukraine (or by Russian forces).
Add to this the apparent lack of slat armor on armored vehicles which makes them prone to RPGs...this slat armor should have been included as it has saved many armored vehicles in other conflicts...
Western tech is definitely in the hands of China and are being studied and probably cloned..
I've watched a few of the tactical videos coming out of Ukraine and have noted many armored vehicles operating in "lone wolf" operations and not in a combined arms profile...when used in such a profile all arms cover each other in an advance making the chance of taking out an armored vehicle much lower. Drones and infantry seek out anti-air/armor weapons systems and take them out before the advance of the tanks...this doesn't seem to be happening in Ukraine (or by Russian forces).
Add to this the apparent lack of slat armor on armored vehicles which makes them prone to RPGs...this slat armor should have been included as it has saved many armored vehicles in other conflicts...
Not sure why we are worried about our tech falling into enemy hands now?
We’ve been in conflict all over the world for decades. Missiles, drones and all else were left nice and neat in Afg to be had, sold and studied. I’d bet anything China and Russia swooped in and collected a lot of our stuff there and then.
We’ve been in conflict all over the world for decades. Missiles, drones and all else were left nice and neat in Afg to be had, sold and studied. I’d bet anything China and Russia swooped in and collected a lot of our stuff there and then.
There were no missiles or drones left in Afghanistan...and the vehicles and weapon systems that were captured by the Taliban from the fleeing ANA were all common platforms-nothing that wasn't exported already.
The advanced systems sent to Ukraine are mostly non-export and many of them haven't been used in an actual conflict in a "peer on peer" scenario...The Ukraine is a test bed for most of these as the Russians and other bad actor states haven't encountered them....until now that is....
The saving grace is that the tanks sent there were the low grade models that would be eligible to be exported....even though they aren't being used effectively even with all the western training.
Wev
Weve lost missiles and drones before over Iraq and Syria. I doubt they’ve recovered anything they haven’t seen before. Maybe a vehicle or two but the missiles we’ve sent all over the place and enemies have probably recovered them. I just don’t think there are many ‘secrets’ left in the world.
I don't know about any missiles being lost and very few if any drones.
Drones have an auto-destruct feature if they get lost...there's not a lot left to dissect...
And I'm talking about advanced ground to air weapon platforms (launchers)...these aren't laying around and none of them have been lost before in other conflicts.
If we watch the video (if it's real) it shows packaged N-Law, Javelin and other intact weapon packages that the bad actor states have yet to see or encounter....all of this should have been BIP'd before retreating or abandoning....
In Iraq, Syria and Afghanistan, if a piece of equipment wasn't able to be recovered or guarded, it was blown up.....there were a few instances where this wasn't done and the Taliban (and other bad actors) took it, hid it and inspected/tested it.....but this was very rare. One of the jobs of my team was to go find, and destroy any western tech in the hands of the enemy.
The Drone Iran Shot Down Was a $220M Surveillance Monster
The Global Hawk can fly at an altitude of 55,000 feet and stay aloft for 30 hours straight.
And now…
Iran’s Latest Indigenous Drone Is A Predator Lookalike
The appearance of the new drone follows longstanding Iranian claims of having captured one of the U.S.-made Predators.
www.thedrive.com
The missiles you speak of yes were captured after being left. We’ve sent so many it’s impossible to protect all of them.
We left Javelins in Afg
The larger systems sure they may not have seen before, IN PERSON. But I still think there are no secrets really and they probably already know the tech.
Lots of espionage going on, all we have to do is look at the tech that came out of the cold war-the Russian space shuttle for instance...The Drone Iran Shot Down Was a $220M Surveillance Monster
The Global Hawk can fly at an altitude of 55,000 feet and stay aloft for 30 hours straight.www.wired.com
And now…
Iran’s Latest Indigenous Drone Is A Predator Lookalike
The appearance of the new drone follows longstanding Iranian claims of having captured one of the U.S.-made Predators.
The missiles you speak of yes were captured after being left. We’ve sent so many it’s impossible to protect all of them.
We left Javelins in Afg
The larger systems sure they may not have seen before, IN PERSON. But I still think there are no secrets really and they probably already know the tech.
I'm sure they have had some information on these systems but now they have real working platforms in their hands....
The ANA never used Javelin and none were used there as the Taliban didn't have armor to use it on.
The Javelin and N-Law were used in Iraq and Syria but not by the local troops nor where any left behind or captured.
I posted a link above showing how many javelins we left in Afg?
"claims Russia" those are words to live by.....
Being a person who was in that AOR and know what the ANA was trained on, Javelin wasn't one of the weapon platforms they were trained in.
However, I wouldn't doubt bad actor states have been able to acquire Javelin (and other) systems through 3rd party purchasers.....
Now they are being gifted them by capture....
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