Russia and Ukraine

Bumblebee said:
I was just reading about "war crimes" being perpetuated by the Russians during their approach when they are engaging civilian targets....

Ukraine has armed their citizens who are not wearing uniforms and have put a call in to create an "international brigade" comprised of many non-military trained individuals.....this sort of thing to me borders on war crimes as it is the duty of a nation's leader to protect it's citizens-not to place them in harm's way.

If a uniformed military encounters armed resistance from non-uniformed citizens, how are they to know these citizens aren't soldiers out of uniform who have formed a partisan unit....this puts all citizens armed or not in peril...an advancing military doesn't have the luxury of picking and choosing targets.

And as far as this "international brigade" goes, I'm surprised NATO is allowing this...how will it play out when these international citizens get killed? Will the host nation think the death of one of their citizens give them cause to launch a war tribunal against Russia?
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Don't you think this is desperation? What choice does Ukraine have? They are at the point when rules and laws go out the window. On the other hand, NATO has to be thinking stopping Putin right here in Ukraine will save a lot of lives because when he takes Kyiv, he'll be on a blood lust and why would he stop at that point?

Interesting nothing from China. They are staying neutral.
 
Bumblebee said:
I was just reading about "war crimes" being perpetuated by the Russians during their approach when they are engaging civilian targets....

Ukraine has armed their citizens who are not wearing uniforms and have put a call in to create an "international brigade" comprised of many non-military trained individuals.....this sort of thing to me borders on war crimes as it is the duty of a nation's leader to protect it's citizens-not to place them in harm's way.

If a uniformed military encounters armed resistance from non-uniformed citizens, how are they to know these citizens aren't soldiers out of uniform who have formed a partisan unit....this puts all citizens armed or not in peril...an advancing military doesn't have the luxury of picking and choosing targets.

And as far as this "international brigade" goes, I'm surprised NATO is allowing this...how will it play out when these international citizens get killed? Will the host nation think the death of one of their citizens give them cause to launch a war tribunal against Russia?
Click to expand...
If you were in Volodymyr's shoes, what would you do?

Tell all citizens to bunker down until they can get out of the country?

Surrender?

Accept America's offer for asylum?

Or do what he is doing and fight for the freedom of his country together with everyone who is able to do so until the bitter end?
 
jellyrug said:
If you were in Volodymyr's shoes, what would you do?

Tell all citizens to bunker down until they can get out of the country?

Surrender?

Accept America's offer for asylum?

Or do what he is doing and fight for the freedom of his country together with everyone who is able to do so until the bitter end?
Click to expand...
I'd take the fight out of the cities and start a pre-insurgency warfare...I'd make it so difficult for the Russian advance as possible....he has a fairly large military which if used in such a way doubles their effectiveness..

The downside is you lose a certain command and control but from what I'm seeing, that has already been lost.

Arming untrained and unqualified civilians is signing their death warrant....this is an act of desperation and if surrender means you don't get a large percentage of your civilian population killed than that is what is needed.

Bringing in these untrained "international brigade" people is signing their death warrant...and it should not be allowed.

If his ideology is to fight to the last person, then he's going down the correct path...Custer followed a similar path.
 
fallenarch said:
Don't you think this is desperation? What choice does Ukraine have? They are at the point when rules and laws go out the window. On the other hand, NATO has to be thinking stopping Putin right here in Ukraine will save a lot of lives because when he takes Kyiv, he'll be on a blood lust and why would he stop at that point?

Interesting nothing from China. They are staying neutral.
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Definitely desperation....

If a military solution won't equate to a victory for Ukraine, surrender is the only avenue...arming your citizens and sending them to their certain death is a criminal act in itself.

As soon as NATO engages any Russian asset, that could be a declaration of war against Russia by NATO and although NATO is more powerful, as soon as Russia is threatened to the point of no return, the nuclear solution will definitely come into play. Then nobody wins....

I'd love to see Ukraine kick Russia's arse all the way back to their borders....but I don't think that's going to happen...armed populace or not...
 
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If nothing else, this invasion will serve as a wake up call to all those nations (mine included) who have been sitting on their backsides enjoying the freedoms and lack of war in their lives.

Nations (like mine) that have allowed their military to lapse into an almost combat ineffective status....

Peace is maintained through superior firepower....
 
Bumblebee said:
I'd take the fight out of the cities and start a pre-insurgency warfare...I'd make it so difficult for the Russian advance as possible....he has a fairly large military which if used in such a way doubles their effectiveness..

The downside is you lose a certain command and control but from what I'm seeing, that has already been lost.

Arming untrained and unqualified civilians is signing their death warrant....this is an act of desperation and if surrender means you don't get a large percentage of your civilian population killed than that is what is needed.

Bringing in these untrained "international brigade" people is signing their death warrant...and it should not be allowed.

If his ideology is to fight to the last person, then he's going down the correct path...Custer followed a similar path.
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No doubt he'll be taking advice on his sat phone from our planners
 
prg said:
No doubt he'll be taking advice on his sat phone from our planners
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Hopefully but from what I am observing, it any advice has been given, it hasn't been effective...

The attack was imminent, if it were me, I would have met them at the border crossings with tank traps, land mines and anti armor/aircraft weapons.... and when they broke through, I would have fought a running retreat making them fight for each and every mile of land they took...

The images of Russian convoys passing through the border crossings unchallenged was hard to watch.
 
Bumblebee said:
Hopefully but from what I am observing, it any advice has been given, it hasn't been effective...

The attack was imminent, if it were me, I would have met them at the border crossings with tank traps, land mines and anti armor/aircraft weapons.... and when they broke through, I would have fought a running retreat making them fight for each and every mile of land they took...

The images of Russian convoys passing through the border crossings unchallenged was hard to watch.
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i guess the terrain is similar to canada , flat prairie lands with open country - not much to hide (Europe's wheat basket)
Tank v Tank, i remember WW2 footage of Nazi German having Tank warfare go rolling over the lands knocking out Soviet armour

The defender in this case has an added benefit of wanting to fight as against Russian conscripts that really don't want to be there
 
Bumblebee said:
Hopefully but from what I am observing, it any advice has been given, it hasn't been effective...

The attack was imminent, if it were me, I would have met them at the border crossings with tank traps, land mines and anti armor/aircraft weapons.... and when they broke through, I would have fought a running retreat making them fight for each and every mile of land they took...

The images of Russian convoys passing through the border crossings unchallenged was hard to watch.
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Should've done a Pearl Harbour when the Russians were at their staging areas.That would've f**ked the Russians up royally.
Read somewhere our new best mates were advised by us, to cede the countryside as FIBUA was more effective
 
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sixpack577 said:
What if they can, but fear it is bait for further aggression?
(Not that I know, but why I'm asking, the whole scenario seems very strange).
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Well past that point (fear of provocation).
There always was going to be a Very Big Armoured force trundling down the road to Kiev. It's how it's done. It's the Russians main effort. 24/7 CAP overhead. Nothing getting close.Nothing was going to stop that column apart from lack of fuel etc.
 
The stresses of War
1861 to 1865 Abraham Lincoln how he aged
1646248060585.png
 
prg said:
Should've done a Pearl Harbour when the Russians were at their staging areas.That would've f**ked the Russians up royally.
Read somewhere our new best mates were advised by us, to cede the countryside as FIBUA was more effective
Click to expand...
Yes, OBUA is a real challenge with a modern military which needs maneuvering space for ground and air forces. Close support gets to be useless in closed spaces unless the Russians plan to destroy compete cities (which I don't think they want to as they want them intact).

The Ukraines should have dug in IEDs along their way...those caused fits to our modern militaries in Afghanistan and Iraq...

This would really slow the convoy down and they would have to prove each and every route before advancing....then laid back patrols could engage their refuellers and support with hit and run tactics...even the hardest opponent would grow weary of this.
 
Bumblebee said:
Yes, OBUA is a real challenge with a modern military which needs maneuvering space for ground and air forces. Close support gets to be useless in closed spaces unless the Russians plan to destroy compete cities (which I don't think they want to as they want them intact).

The Ukraines should have dug in IEDs along their way...those caused fits to our modern militaries in Afghanistan and Iraq...

This would really slow the convoy down and they would have to prove each and every route before advancing....then laid back patrols could engage their refuellers and support with hit and run tactics...even the hardest opponent would grow weary of this.
Click to expand...
IEDs...fits..
Didnt they ever. Bastard things☹️
 
Bumblebee said:
Yes, OBUA is a real challenge with a modern military which needs maneuvering space for ground and air forces. Close support gets to be useless in closed spaces unless the Russians plan to destroy compete cities (which I don't think they want to as they want them intact).

The Ukraines should have dug in IEDs along their way...those caused fits to our modern militaries in Afghanistan and Iraq...

This would really slow the convoy down and they would have to prove each and every route before advancing....then laid back patrols could engage their refuellers and support with hit and run tactics...even the hardest opponent would grow weary of this.
Click to expand...

Well they’re claiming that they’ve hit the column but no details.

news.yahoo.com

Ukraine jets hit Russian column; Russia has used thermobarics, Ukraine military says

Startling new claims in Russia's war on Ukraine by the head of Ukraine's defense intelligence agency.
news.yahoo.com news.yahoo.com
 
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