Single topic debate #2

[RaveCrusader]

About belief:

Believing is easy. People will believe almost anything. Most people associate beliefs with what they feel rather then what they know or realize they don’t know. We all feel from the time we are children and we believe all sorts of things; most of which turns out to be unsupported by fact.

Learning is hard. Some people don’t do it at all. Some people make the same mistakes repeatedly with little or no re-evaluation. Learning is about challenging beliefs and ultimately challenging how we feel. Many people don’t want to do that so they just believe.

Also, since where is Christianity the only religion and the only true god? It’s not even the first monotheistic religion. It’s not even the predominant religion in the world. There is another major religion that says there is only one god and Mohamed is his profit. P.S. those guys are so dedicated to their beliefs they will fly planes into buildings. Talk about never challenging their own belief structure.

Anyone here still believe the earth is flat? That was a common belief worldwide at one time.

Science is more geared to proving things. Religion is more geared towards believing things. I would rather see things proven then just believe them.

 

[Postal]

THE BIBLE IS A BOOK!!!!  A work written and RE-written by man.

That is all.  Eventually you have to deal with the fact that the book was written by humans, humans have their own agenda's.

Rev, this is a good point that I want to comment on because so many people feel this way. First, I agree with what you said. Men did "pen" the Bible, but God "wrote" it. From a Christian's view, the Bible was written by God, through the hands of men, to convey God's message about life. We believe that the Holy Spirit guided their compilation of the Bible, starting with the 1611 King James Bible.

Why did God do it this way? Why the 1611 Bible? I won't know the answers until I meet God.

P.

 

[Postal]

About belief:

Believing is easy. People will believe almost anything. Most people associate beliefs with what they feel rather then what they know or realize they don’t know. We all feel from the time we are children and we believe all sorts of things; most of which turns out to be unsupported by fact.

Learning is hard. Some people don’t do it at all. Some people make the same mistakes repeatedly with little or no re-evaluation. Learning is about challenging beliefs and ultimately challenging how we feel. Many people don’t want to do that so they just believe.

Also, since where is Christianity the only religion and the only true god? It’s not even the first monotheistic religion. It’s not even the predominant religion in the world. There is another major religion that says there is only one god and Mohamed is his profit. P.S. those guys are so dedicated to their beliefs they will fly planes into buildings. Talk about never challenging their own belief structure.

Anyone here still believe the earth is flat? That was a common belief worldwide at one time.

Science is more geared to proving things. Religion is more geared towards believing things. I would rather see things proven then just believe them.

Excellent thoughts Rave! Let me just comment that the reason Christians believe that their belief is the only true belief has to do with what Jesus Christ said. He said "there is but one God, and one mediator between God and man, Christ Jesus." It is a Faith thing. I have "Faith" in Jesus Christ. I do not have faith in religion. Religion is man-made. I also have faith that Jesus Christ is the only way to eternal life with God in Heaven. Jesus said "that no man shall come unto the Father except through me (Jesus)." You see, Jesus made some pretty outstanding claims, and backed it up with raising from the dead. If Jesus had not rose from the dead like He said he was going to, then Christianity would be non-existant I believe. It all rides on faith man, faith that Jesus is the only one who is going to bring me and you eternal life in Heavan with God. That is what it is all about for Christians.

P.



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[Revlis]

Yeah, I know this is part of the "faith" or Belief of the religious community. I understand the concept of faith, and it's not something that can be argued or changed externaly. This is the point where all these debates fall down. The scientific community says "SHOW ME" the religious community says "faith". It's an impass.

I prefer Idea's because they can be changed, they can adapt and grow.

In the end, there are a lot oworse things people could do than to try and live their lives according to the Bible. Regardless of who wrote it, so long as it isn't taken to literally, (Salting lands and stoning people) the Bible is filled with lots of tips for living and getting through life.

 

[Postal]

Yeah, I know this is part of the "faith" or Belief of the religious community.  I understand the concept of faith, and it's not something that can be argued or changed externaly.  This is the point where all these debates fall down.  The scientific community says "SHOW ME" the religious community says "faith".  It's an impass.

I prefer Idea's because they can be changed, they can adapt and grow.  

In the end, there are a lot oworse things people could do than to try and live their lives according to the Bible.  Regardless of who wrote it, so long as it isn't taken to literally, (Salting lands and stoning people) the Bible is filled with lots of tips for living and getting through life.

Rev, you are a wise man! I like what you just said. I respect your ideas too Bro!

P.

 

[WWJD]

Homework: Everyone go rent the DVD "Contact" with Jodi Foster. Decide what was real and what wasn't for tomorrow. It's all about science and faith if you haven't seen it wrapped in a slick sci-fi/drama

Bible: ok, men wrote it. men write things today. and WE are WAY smarter than any of those sheep hurders, with internet, email, 100s of years of knowledge and growth.... why haven't we written anything better than that big scam known as the Bible? SURELY, SOMEONE can come up with a lifeplan better than invisible, unprovable conscience watchdog/babysitter/deity?

 

[WWJD]

woohooO! page 8! How long did our last "discussion" go? 20 pages or so? I know A6 expanding the size picking apart every line of text...

WHERE ARE YOU A6? ? ? He had many interesting positions on all this too

 

[dudewizr]

AMEN???  

Oh come on, Postal you know I love ya, please don't take anything to heart.

THE BIBLE IS A BOOK!!!!  A work written and RE-written by man.

That is all.  Eventually you have to deal with the fact that the book was written by humans, humans have their own agenda's.  Humans who want others to listen and fall in line will prey on ANY fears any weakness to gain a foothold on a persons psyche...
OF COURSE THEY ARE GOING TO SAY IT'S THE WORD OF GOD!!!!  It behooves them to do so.  Greed, Money, Power, Corruption. The cornerstones of modern Christianity...

Then, POOF!

The Bible.  

Are you referring to the original authors or those responsible for the various translations throughout history?

The Bible came into existence through Revelation, Inspiration and Illumination. And if 40 diffrent people could write various portions over a period of roughly 2200 years with the unity and consistency that exists in the Bible then that pretty amazing.

I have an idea: start your own ideaology, you can choose to call it religion or whatever you want to make it up to be. Write a book that is so compelling, life changing to the point where people are willing to die for it. They will devote their entire lives to studying its every word, occasionally over the next millenium adding to it and maintaining perfect synchronization. Get it to climb the charts of the best sellers list and keep it there for say about 1000 years actually just get it at the top for 10 years. Distibute it world wide and get great personalities from different areas such as U.S. Presidents, world leaders, military generals, scientists, historians, physicians, lawyers and educators to publicly make great statements about it. Then and only then you may with some actuall authority and insight question, degrade, defame or do whatever you like or say what ever you may say regarding the Bible. This is just a little challenge for you, shouldn't be too tough, just throw a little science into it.

 

[RaveCrusader]

In the end, there are a lot worse things people could do than to try and live their lives according to the Bible.  Regardless of who wrote it, so long as it isn't taken to literally, (Salting lands and stoning people) the Bible is filled with lots of tips for living and getting through life.

I can agree with that. There are far worse things. But I don't think that people should rely on the bible alone, or chrisianity alone.

Good tidbits can come from lots of places, even kawasaki websites.

 

[SAMBUSA]

This debate shouldn't come as a suprise to those of us who believe in God.  In the Bible, Jesus himself stated that there will be those who challenge and dispute the truth of God.

There will come a day that we believers will be breaking the law just by believing in God.  So, are you willing to die for what you believe?  I am.  Even in the face of death I will still believe.  I just PRAY that I teach my children well enough that they will do the same.



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[Revlis]

Umm, Beacuse the Bible Says so... Right...

The Bible came into existence through Revelation, Inspiration and Illumination. And if 40 different people could write various portions over a period of roughly 2200 years with the unity and consistency that exists in the Bible then that pretty amazing.[/QUOTE]

Words actually escape me right now. Again the Book says it's true so it must be true.

Men, With chalk, pen and ink blood of the unbelievers, pick one. Wrote and re-wrote the bible to suite their needs. WHY aren't there alternatives? POWER AND MONEY.... Books were horribly expensive, people who could read rare. those with alternative viewpoints have been burnt, put to the sword, and otherwise eliminated. Hell the Book says to do so right?

Not to hard to write how this book is the one true word when your source of verification IS the BOOK. Hell the Christians destroy or condemn knowledge which may threaten their choke hold on the minds of their flock... Alexandria comes to mind destroying thousands of years of written history tablets and texts from the craddle of civilization. GONE, Lit up!

Leonardo, and some of the greatest greatest minds of all time imprisoned, threatened, condemned... Because their ideas were revolutionary and fresh. Might lead the Sheeple from the flock... might loose tithing... Better Lock em' up. Tell me what chance an open mind had until recent history...

Show me ANY evidence, ANY real solid proof that the Bible has NOT been revised, and edited as needed. EVERY SOURCE you find will in fact GO INTO THE BOOK ITSELF and "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness" (2 Timothy 3:16)[/QUOTE] in an attempt to provide proof of the validity of the books.

I don't buy it. It's senseless.

I have an idea: start your own ideaology, you can choose to call it religion or whatever you want to make it up to be. Write a book that is so compelling, life changing to the point where people are willing to die for it. They will devote their entire lives to studying its every word, occasionally over the next millenium adding to it and maintaining perfect synchronization. Get it to climb the charts of the best sellers list and keep it there for say about 1000 years actually just get it at the top for 10 years. Distibute it world wide and get great personalities from different areas such as U.S. Presidents, world leaders, military generals, scientists, historians, physicians, lawyers and educators to publicly make great statements about it. Then and only then you may with some actuall authority and insight question, degrade, defame or do whatever you like or say what ever you may say regarding the Bible. This is just a little challenge for you, shouldn't be too tough, just throw a little science into it.[/QUOTE]

It's called Scientology, it's already been done... Create a religion on a lark knowing it's a bunch of crap and you still get legions of folks listening.

Sheeple are sheeple, they look for meaning, they yearn for something to make them feel safe and feel better whilst allowing them to heap scorn on those NOT like them... Hell Wage wars.... The Bible is perfectly in tune with this. Filling that very natural void.



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[WWJD]

rev, I don't know where the answers are to the "legitimacy of the bible" question, but I know there is plenty out there. perhaps postal or someone will be able to post up. I went to a seminar once about that very issue and the gray haired, higly respected, well known [yea i foerget how it was] scientist, author, speaker etc guy had just tons and tons and then more tons of historical PROOF that the bible is the most accurate recorded history on the planet. It was very cool. everything he showed and said was backed up with legitimate sources and he is always challenged by skeptics and they always loose. he knows his stuff.

I choose a New Living Translation version because I did a bunch of research as to how they interpretted or translated it and was impressed.

REGUARDLESS of who thinks what was written and rewritten by whom, one of the MAIN staples in my belief is simple:

It works today. Period.

And I am not saying that cuz the Bible TELLS me it works. I SEE and have SEEN it work amazing things for people. THAT is all the tangible proof I need.

 

[Postal]

Show me ANY evidence, ANY real solid proof that the Bible has NOT been revised, and edited as needed.

Rev: Interesting point. Do you remember 10 - 15 years ago when they discovered the Dead Sea Scrolls in the Middle East? One of them contained the entire book of Isaiah in its original form, thousands of years old, in scroll form. Upon the first translation (by archeological translators) it matched today's version of Isaiah in the Holy Bible nearly word for word, with onlyminor differencs in grammatical expression. Is that a good start at proof bro?

;-)

P.

 

[Postal]

Also, for those of you who really want to dig into "Bible evidence," Josh McDowell has two books out called "Evidence That Demands a Verdict, Volume one and two." If any one of you will read both books, as I have, and can honestly tell me that you don't believe the Bible is the true, inspired Word of God, I'll never post another word on this web site about Jesus, Christianity, or religion. I'll know if you read them too. No skim reading either, I mean real "study" reading! You can get them in paperback at most any book store.

P.

 

[Revlis]

rev, I don't know where the answers are to the "legitimacy of the bible" question, but I know there is plenty out there. perhaps postal or someone will be able to post up. I went to a seminar once about that very issue and the gray haired, higly respected, well known [yea i foerget how it was] scientist, author, speaker etc guy had just tons and tons and then more tons of historical PROOF that the bible is the most accurate recorded history on the planet. It was very cool. everything he showed and said was backed up with legitimate sources and he is always challenged by skeptics and they always loose. he knows his stuff.

I choose a New Living Translation version because I did a bunch of research as to how they interpretted or translated it and was impressed.

REGUARDLESS of who thinks what was written and rewritten by whom, one of the MAIN staples in my belief is simple:

It works today. Period.

And I am not saying that cuz the Bible TELLS me it works. I SEE and have SEEN it work amazing things for people. THAT is all the tangible proof I need.

Ah But I am not doubting it's historical accuracy. It's simple enough. Folks who are writing the books place themselves in the books so they remain relevent. Of it's accuracy in a historical sense I have no doubt.

It's the books repeated claims of divinity and it's declaration that it is the soul (Get It) source of Salvation and the ONE book, that I have contention with.



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[Revlis]

rev, I don't know where the answers are to the "legitimacy of the bible" question, but I know there is plenty out there. perhaps postal or someone will be able to post up. I went to a seminar once about that very issue and the gray haired, higly respected, well known [yea i foerget how it was] scientist, author, speaker etc guy had just tons and tons and then more tons of historical PROOF that the bible is the most accurate recorded history on the planet. It was very cool. everything he showed and said was backed up with legitimate sources and he is always challenged by skeptics and they always loose. he knows his stuff.

I choose a New Living Translation version because I did a bunch of research as to how they interpretted or translated it and was impressed.

REGUARDLESS of who thinks what was written and rewritten by whom, one of the MAIN staples in my belief is simple:

It works today. Period.

And I am not saying that cuz the Bible TELLS me it works. I SEE and have SEEN it work amazing things for people. THAT is all the tangible proof I need.

Yes But Budhism works great for it's followers, Hindu's have their answers and are content. Same for the Muslims they are convinced they have the RIGHT answer, a system that provides for the hungry, protects the weak, and punishes the criminal.

Heck the Mormans have a religion that works, this is little evidence that their beliefs are sound or little more than comforting fairy tales and fables.

For that Matter our own childhood fairy tales teach important life lessons. Provide sign posts for good and bad. Does this mean we should worship Aesop?

I picked up a New Living translation and found it over simplified. I didn't like the narrowed down interpretations of meaning. Having a passage boiled down for me as the whim struck the authors.

Oddly enough I still have NO problem with a person who picks up the Bible, is inspired to do good and does their best to live their life accordingly. Lot worse things could happen...

 

[WWJD]

wait... can I have more than one wife if I'm mormon? COUNT ME IN!

Just like today, people write fiction that has a moral to it. Everyone is welcome to. But Aesop never claimed to be a son of God

The NLT is not narrowed down, but put in today's verbage, loosing nothing except the thrill of speaking hebrew or whatever

Check out "The Message" version. I have not researched it's transalation, but it reads REALLY simplified. I think it is for the X-generation


So, back on topic, does everyone believe

a) intelligent design
b) random big bang?

I'll opt for something that includes the word intelligent

 

[WWJD]

and I ALMOST hate to do this for fear of being labeled something but Ima paste in 4 lines of the same verse to see how translations differ, just for kicks. Bear with me on this. from here:

http://www.biblegateway.com

3:16 (Arabic Life Application Bible)
16 لأَنَّهُ هكَذَا أَحَبَّ اللهُ الْعَالَمَ حَتَّى بَذَلَ ابْنَهُ الْوَحِيدَ، لِكَيْ لاَ يَهْلِكَ كُلُّ مَنْ يُؤْمِنُ بِهِ، بَلْ تَكُونُ لَهُ الْحَيَاةُ الأَبَدِيَّ

John 3:16 (King James Version)
16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 3:16 (New Living Translation)
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:16 (The Message)
16-18"This is how much God loved the world: He gave his Son, his one and only Son. And this is why: so that no one need be destroyed; by believing in him, anyone can have a whole and lasting life.

interesting. I promise to not shove anymore verses at anyone. Personally, I can't stand trying to read the King James, cuz I just don't talk like that and therefore have no clue what it is saying. I don't speak Arabic so that's out. The last two work for me and don't loose anything in translation

just exmples for thought. now I'm going for pizza!

 

[Revlis]

MmmMmMmm Pizza... Sounds real good... can I found a church based on Pizza...

 

[WWJD]

MmmMmMmm Pizza... Sounds real good... can I found a church based on Pizza...

you are too late
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb3082/is_199809/ai_n7832334

but if you founded your own, I bet it would only satisfy the soul for about 20 minutes