Chris Moore has the first gen 3 turbo.

[SS4Luck]

Moore going faster than TTS at a drag strip on his bike with a $2,700 drag race mtc clutch means nothing to the average street rider and means nothing comparing the TTS Supercharger to the HTP turbo kit.

This just further pushes my belief that the HTP kit is a grudge/max effort kit they’re turning down for the street user. The price point is going to scare 99% of street/street race people and I’m sure is perfectly in line with the all out grudge world pricing.

HTP WILL be faster because when R&D is done it’ll be a 80” bike that makes 800+ on m1 and will be just like CMs black gixxer, yellow gixxer or the host of turbo Gen 2s in his stable.


The more this kit gets broken down, the more it’s going to be like comparing a HellCat to Ryan Martin’s camaro. They’re both cars with 4 wheels and auto transmissions and the similarities basically stop there lol

 

[SS4Luck]

So why isn’t the Superbusa fast and why should the HTP bike be faster?

I would love to see performance facts of the 2 bikes compared.

Superbusa is said to have 382 bhp on fuel pump and 400 bhp on E85. Just 18 bhp from using E85?

HTP bike had 302 wheel horse power, right? That is around 345 bhp (15% in plus) and 372 whp on E85. So 70 whp from using E85.

The two, when said and done, shouldn’t be compared.

Super busa was designed to make 400hp. HTP was designed to make 800, and is turned down so they don’t kill every single person who tries to buy it.

Set to kill, the HTP kit has so much more significant potential they aren’t even in the same universe. But they were designed to do that same thing.



In their video they said the HTP kit took till redline to make 9psi on e85, because a turbo that size needs to leave off of anti lag. If you redo that dyno and leave on rolling anti lag it’ll leave at 9 psi, spike to 11 and bleed back down to 9 as it goes through the gears.

 

[sixpack577]

Ok, serious question guys.
Again, I'm a street hoon, I'm just looking for big useable hp for fun on a future gen3.
I've liked the TTS sc idea since the old gen2 days.
I'm not chasing numbers or racing.
But 18psi, is that pump gas??
I wouldn't think so(but I've always been a naturally aspirated engine guy).
And either way, wouldn't 18psi be high for a daily driver?
More like 9ish for high 200's hp on pump gas?
I also *assume* that boost increase is just a smaller pulley and different tune?
So technically, if you could toggle between 2 maps and swap a pulley, you could gain 80-100hp in a few minutes?
But again, at 18psi, I'de be thinking higher stress on the head gasket(and whole engine of course), and if I had to do pistons anyway, I'de be smart to do rods too for 9 or 18psi, better safe than sorry.
And the total cost would be what, 10% more, so no big deal really.
As for the turbo, I'm just following, as there's obviously nothing I can add other than I think it's an interesting project that's still unfolding.
For Chris Moore, as I've said before, he is by all accounts a nice, normal guy.
He has good dyno skills based off of previous maps. Magic Mike does great stuff there.
It's cool to see them getting into the turbo game too.
But I'm not out to say he's the end all at anything, and doubt he would either.
I enjoy watching all these high hp builds.
I do think that it's bad that TTS gets negative press too.
As I've only seen it marketed as a high hp supercharged bike. It is awesome in it's own right, not to mention the engineering that went into it.
Superchargers and turbos both provide boost, and that's about where the simularities end.
I'm sure the sc is competitive with turbos...to a point, but again, what can you really expect?
The sc bike is big hp, stock wheelbase, daily rider(aimed at guys like me), and once you get a turbo bike that has more hp, and can outrun the sc, you can't really claim that it's streetable.
Sure, you Can ride it on the street, but it's lowered, stretched, and running on fuel you just can't get anywhere.
The cost difference is also Huge.
As said, I'm no turbo guy, but enough of a decent mechanic to see it as an unfair comparison.

 

[sixpack577]

Also, I get the H2 arguement.
Some don't like the idea of not knowing if the sc Busa is faster.
Vs a Stock H2, I don't see how it can't be.
Vs a flashed H2 with more boost?
Who cares?
Why?
Have you seen what a tuned up H2 really is? ...it's a 300hp grenade.
1000cc vs 1300-1400cc is a Big difference in the size and strength of rods and engine internals, and That is the main reason you see more zx14's and mainly Busas as big hp turbo bikes.
1000cc bikes just don't live as long under much boost, and the money it takes to get them to, goes much further, and makes much more, and more dependable power in bigger engines.
So I see that as a fair argument against an H2.
It was great to see Kawasaki make it as a factory bike...but after how many years now, how popular and badazz is it?
meh, not so much...

 

[TonyM995]

u shouldnt put bad info out there... VPM1 fuel itself does the cooling and the fuel itself resists any detonation.... Masters of methanol - drag racing fuel system tricks ALSO...

Methanol as a racing fuel is great and I understand it plenty. This comment tells me you don’t know what it actually takes to put on a car/bike.

Running methanol requires a very expensive fuel system, $3,000+ First you need to flow 2.2x more fuel volume compared to gas. That’s a $1000 mechanical fuel pump, $1000 injectors, billet fuel rail, lines, and fuel cell.

Sizing your injectors calculated with BSFC multiplied by your horsepower goal = pounds of fuel per hour. Divide the lbs of fuel per hour by the number of injectors you’re running and you will have the flow rate required per injector. I’ve shown this math in another thread.

For a street application, bringing methanol into the conversation as an option is the dumbest argument ever.

Here is what DME had to say when I inquired about some of their fuel cell options. One vents air via the fuel cap like our stock tanks. The other has a 1/8” bung because if you need to flow 2.2x more fuel you need to have a vent large enough that will let air into the tank as quickly as fuel is exiting.


It’s nice to have you back btw.

 

[Robert 0046]

I told you..lol

@Fernando Si fuera que van a comprar el kit de turbo o de supercharger esta bien pero es por joder na ma

 

[TonyM995]

Ok, serious question guys.
Again, I'm a street hoon, I'm just looking for big useable hp for fun on a future gen3.
I've liked the TTS sc idea since the old gen2 days.
I'm not chasing numbers or racing.
But 18psi, is that pump gas??
I wouldn't think so(but I've always been a naturally aspirated engine guy).
And either way, wouldn't 18psi be high for a daily driver?
More like 9ish for high 200's hp on pump gas?
I also *assume* that boost increase is just a smaller pulley and different tune?
So technically, if you could toggle between 2 maps and swap a pulley, you could gain 80-100hp in a few minutes?
But again, at 18psi, I'de be thinking higher stress on the head gasket(and whole engine of course), and if I had to do pistons anyway, I'de be smart to do rods too for 9 or 18psi, better safe than sorry.
And the total cost would be what, 10% more, so no big deal really.
As for the turbo, I'm just following, as there's obviously nothing I can add other than I think it's an interesting project that's still unfolding.
For Chris Moore, as I've said before, he is by all accounts a nice, normal guy.
He has good dyno skills based off of previous maps. Magic Mike does great stuff there.
It's cool to see them getting into the turbo game too.
But I'm not out to say he's the end all at anything, and doubt he would either.
I enjoy watching all these high hp builds.
I do think that it's bad that TTS gets negative press too.
As I've only seen it marketed as a high hp supercharged bike. It is awesome in it's own right, not to mention the engineering that went into it.
Superchargers and turbos both provide boost, and that's about where the simularities end.
I'm sure the sc is competitive with turbos...to a point, but again, what can you really expect?
The sc bike is big hp, stock wheelbase, daily rider(aimed at guys like me), and once you get a turbo bike that has more hp, and can outrun the sc, you can't really claim that it's streetable.
Sure, you Can ride it on the street, but it's lowered, stretched, and running on fuel you just can't get anywhere.
The cost difference is also Huge.
As said, I'm no turbo guy, but enough of a decent mechanic to see it as an unfair comparison.

Tuco posted a link to a map and it says “RUNNING PUMP GAS 99OCT RON”. I don’t know anything about the difference between fuel in Europe vs US but there are differences in fuel across the states so I’m not sure what that gas is he used. In Colorado we only have 85/87/91 octane.

I agree at some point it’s not a fair comparison but at this point I feel this- me on my bike with a TTS kit would be faster than me on my bike with the HTP kit as it’s been presented.

Also Magic Mike owned a shop local to me called Quik Cycles. He had turbo Busas that maxed out his 500 whp dyno, built a ton of the road racers motors, and was the local Pirelli Race tire rep so he was at all the road races. Super nice guy and he moved from here with his wife and two kids to work for Chris. I’ll try to dig up one of his old dyno videos but I was so happy to see when he got a Gen 3 Busa. He was riding an old ass R1 before that.

 

[sixpack577]

Tuco posted a link to a map and it says “RUNNING PUMP GAS 99OCT RON”. I don’t know anything about the difference between fuel in Europe vs US but there are differences in fuel across the states so I’m not sure what that gas is he used. In Colorado we only have 85/87/91 octane.

I agree at some point it’s not a fair comparison but at this point I feel this- me on my bike with a TTS kit would be faster than me on my bike with the HTP kit as it’s been presented.

Also Magic Mike owned a shop local to me called Quik Cycles. He had turbo Busas that maxed out his 500 whp dyno, built a ton of the road racers motors, and was the local Pirelli Race tire rep so he was at all the road races. Super nice guy and he moved from here with his wife and two kids to work for Chris. I’ll try to dig up one of his old dyno videos but I was so happy to see when he got a Gen 3 Busa. He was riding an old ass R1 before that.

Cool, I didn't know that about him.
And an R1?? Booooooo, lmao

The UK's 99 octane is our 93, so even better.
But 18psi on 93, with 370whp, wow, ok...yes please!

 

[TonyM995]

This just further pushes my belief that the HTP kit is a grudge/max effort kit they’re turning down for the street user. The price point is going to scare 99% of street/street race people and I’m sure is perfectly in line with the all out grudge world pricing.

HTP WILL be faster because when R&D is done it’ll be a 80” bike that makes 800+ on m1 and will be just like CMs black gixxer, yellow gixxer or the host of turbo Gen 2s in his stable.


The more this kit gets broken down, the more it’s going to be like comparing a HellCat to Ryan Martin’s camaro. They’re both cars with 4 wheels and auto transmissions and the similarities basically stop there lol

Yeah I’m feeling the same way now that we have hashed it out. I need two emoji’s for your comment because I start with ‘like’ and ended laughing with the comparing a Hell Cat to Ryan Martins Camaro. Good call on that one hahaha.

@Fernando Si fuera que van a comprar el kit de turbo o de supercharger esta bien pero es por joder na ma

Actually everyone learned from our conversation today. This is a message board for conversation, right?

I enjoy talking with @TucoSalimonca and others about turbo stuff.

The back and forth has us all thinking critically and we all become more informed buyers. Thanks for the chat all!!

It’s still going to be exciting to see it unfold after their testing. See what the cost is and compare that to what RCC may be coming up with.

That would mean we have 3 high quality options for mail order boost this year! TTS, HTP, and RCC! How great is that?

 

[GSXRme]

This was nothing but a promo announcement. We all know Moore's going to push 600-700hp and it will be extended. I'd say for street that turbo is by far to big and a g25-550 or a pte5858 would be ideal. Those turbos can still easily hit 400hp and spool way better. Take all of this with a gain of salt. Wait for more announcements. G30s don't belong on the street.

Example, I put a pte6466 on a 2L WRX and it boost slaps at 4000rpms all the way to 8500rpms redline at 40psi. I don't recommend it. Ya I have over 800hp but its not fun. It's a god damn hot mess. anxiety to the max.

 

[pcs]

how many here are actually planning on putting force induction on their busa? just out of curiosity.

 

[GSXRme]

how many here are actually planning on putting force induction on their busa? just out of curiosity.

Me, had a gen1 2005 to be exact and she has 302hp on 93 pump. I don't want to talk about how I lost her.

 

[GSXRme]

Also let's wait to see how Smith does with his ECU vs cost. MoTec isn't cheap, figure HTP custom tables and what not we might be 7-10k for a plug and play kit.

Built engine, rods, pistons, bearings, possible cams, studs and labor might also land 10k assembled.

Now turbo kit 6-10k.

This might be a 25k kit bundled.

 

[SS4Luck]

Turbohow many here are actually planning on putting force induction on their busa? just out of curiosity.

There’s a lot more turbo busa’s running around than most people think. If RCC can’t/doesn’t make anything by Jan 2024 for the Gen 3 I’ll leave mine as a bolt on cruiser and build a 450+ hp Gen 2. I think RCC + boost by smith MaxxECU is going to be the Gen 3 setup that we’re all really looking for. Flex fuel, traction control, rolling anti lag adjustable boost/tune levels controlled on the fly by a knob. That sounds like the perfect street setup. 3500-4500 for the PCM, 5-8k for the turbo kit. Let’s say another 2500 in random cost. You have an approx 15k package that will be real street bike oriented and will make for a good comparison against TTS

 

[smithabusa]

There’s a lot more turbo busa’s running around than most people think. If RCC can’t/doesn’t make anything by Jan 2024 for the Gen 3 I’ll leave mine as a bolt on cruiser and build a 450+ hp Gen 2. I think RCC + boost by smith MaxxECU is going to be the Gen 3 setup that we’re all really looking for. Flex fuel, traction control, rolling anti lag adjustable boost/tune levels controlled on the fly by a knob. That sounds like the perfect street setup. 3500-4500 for the PCM, 5-8k for the turbo kit. Let’s say another 2500 in random cost. You have an approx 15k package that will be real street bike oriented and will make for a good comparison against TTS

Why add a knob when we have so many dash modes and buttons to play with LOL?

One example

 

[smithabusa]

Also let's wait to see how Smith does with his ECU vs cost. MoTec isn't cheap, figure HTP custom tables and what not we might be 7-10k for a plug and play kit.

Built engine, rods, pistons, bearings, possible cams, studs and labor might also land 10k assembled.

Now turbo kit 6-10k.

This might be a 25k kit bundled.

From what ive heard 7k ish is what the motec costs, and arent really available due to super long back order lead times. Im hoping to be in the half ish cost range for base setups with a LOT of functionality.

 

[sixpack577]

how many here are actually planning on putting force induction on their busa? just out of curiosity.

Me...seriously.
I have my gen3 gripes, but still plan to buy one. I've owned and ridden enough gen 1's and 2's, and after sitting on a gen3, yep, it'll be my next one(other than the cheaper bikes I buy, sell, and trade).
I also want to go all with it, wheels, brakes, suspension, etc, stock wheelbase.
I have loved the idea of the supercharger for years on the gen2, and I want that kind of simple, linear, and low maintenance hp(at whatever the safe boost level is determined to be).
I do all my own work, and have only ever had and ridden naturally aspirated bikes.
But, a supercharger to me is an easy way for big street power, as I'm not racing or chasing numbers.
It's a beef up the engine internals, bolt on the sc kit, have it tuned, and I'm done.
It lacks the complexity and bigger cost of the turbo bikes, which under most cases are much more race oriented.
So, in the meantime, while I hold my money in this economy, I read all I can about it.
I enjoy listening to the guys here that are knowledgable about these things, and being able to jump in with questions.

 

[smithabusa]

Me...seriously.
I have my gen3 gripes, but still plan to buy one. I've owned and ridden enough gen 1's and 2's, and after sitting on a gen3, yep, it'll be my next one(other than the cheaper bikes I buy, sell, and trade).
I also want to go all with it, wheels, brakes, suspension, etc, stock wheelbase.
I have loved the idea of the supercharger for years on the gen2, and I want that kind of simple, linear, and low maintenance hp(at whatever the safe boost level is determined to be).
I do all my own work, and have only ever had and ridden naturally aspirated bikes.
But, a supercharger to me is an easy way for big street power, as I'm not racing or chasing numbers.
It's a beef up the engine internals, bolt on the sc kit, have it tuned, and I'm done.
It lacks the complexity and bigger cost of the turbo bikes, which under most cases are much more race oriented.
So, in the meantime, while I hold my money in this economy, I read all I can about it.
I enjoy listening to the guys here that are knowledgable about these things, and being able to jump in with questions.

from a tuning perspective IMO, probably a lot better shot at doing a super charger which has very predictable boost per RPM on a stock ECU. IMO, a turbo is always more fun, but i've never ridden a SC bike, but for me anyway in autos i love turbos more. Boost control is a lot easier IMO on a turbo setup for low an really wild HP without changing any hardware.

 

[Fernando]

Here is a pic from my Turbo busa Gen 1 2003. In my opinion,I love Turbo system and I remembered using boost by smith boost controller it was a beast









 

[smithabusa]

Here is a pic from my Turbo busa Gen 1 2003. In my opinion,I love Turbo system and I remembered using boost by smith boost controller it was a beast









View attachment 1661520

View attachment 1661521

yeah my 6 stage boost by gear with regulators took up my whole trunk LOL. Very very low tech, worked pretty good though for a street bike LOL